8.10.2007
A.J. Drew and the Frosts Effigy Update
[This is part one of a two-part series that will update you on the fallout of A.J. Drew's decision to "sacrifice" Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy at his "International Real Witches Ball". Part two tomorrow will deal directly with the issue of the Frosts' writing, and what to do about pedophilia, and writings that the community feels supports pedophilia. All comments are being moderated, so please be civil.]
When Wiccan author and event organizer A.J. Drew announced a couple months ago that he planned to "sacrifice" an effigy of Church and School of Wicca founders Gavin and Yvonne Frost, few could have predicted the level of controversy and fallout that would occur from it. While trying to combat the spread of pedophilia and abuse is a noble thing, it seems Drew's tactics concerning the Frosts and their literature have polarized the community, burned a few bridges, and created a situation where former colleagues of Drew's have abandoned him (and then been savaged as supporters of the Frosts).
"How many more will befriend these monsters? How many more will defend, befriend, and go out of their way to harm others to protect the Frosts? Maybe we should all ask everyone we know do you support the Frosts? Are you aware of what they wrote? Do you support the North American Man Boy Love Association? Are you aware of what they wrote?" - A.J. Drew
Drew's "International Real Witches Ball" has had every guest speaker drop out. This includes Lisa McSherry, Raven Grimassi, Stephanie Taylor, Donald Michael Kraig, and Ann Moura. Most cite Drew's effigy ritual as the prime reason for backing out.
"Had we known that the RWB would focus (as indicated by the importance placed on it on the RWB website) on a political protest in the form of a negative ritual wherein living people are sacrificed in effigy, we would not have accepted the invitation. In our judgment the ritual is a type of black magic and vigilantism. The design of the ritual as described to us could have a negative impact on the community and may be psychologically deleterious to some participants. As a result, we have decided to not participate in this year's event."
Drew has also faced criticism from prominent Pagan leaders like Isaac Bonewits who came to the defense of the Frosts.
"I have known the Frosts for decades and they are good people. The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it. Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible. This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since."
Meanwhile others, like author and Wiccan elder Raymond Buckland, have praised Drew's intent while criticizing the planned ritual.
"Let me get into the fuss over the proposed "De-Frosting," if I may? Using effigies is fine if they are used for positive purposes (such as healing). But NOTHING should be condoned that is negative or is in any way working against someone. That can only be construed as negative magic ("black magic"). I think this is why some of your proposed speakers have bailed out from RWB07. It's because they don't want to be associated with working negative magic, not necessarily because they endorse what the Frosts do. If I had been able to attend this year's ball, I would not have been a part of such a ritual ... you've made a great statement, AJ, and something does need to be done. But it's how to do it. There are always positive ways to work things, if you think about it."
More recently, Drew has come into conflict with Peg Aloi, an author and media coordinator for The Witches' Voice. The nature of their conflict is a bit labyrinthine, and it seems that the issue of Drew's campaign against the Frosts is simply the latest bone of contention between them.
"For me, the "issue at hand" has nothing to do with your questions regarding my position on the Frosts writing or the support they have from other people in the pagan community. The "issue at hand" is your histrionics, designed to whip the visitors to the PN website into a frenzy. As well as your desire to stage a public psychic attack which may well end up having serious psychic and other sorts of consequences. As well as your self-serving attempt to draw attention to yourself by attacking two elderly people who have not done anything wrong." - Peg Aloi (posting as "nightshy")
Finally, the Frosts themselves have started a blog, and have taken to attacking the attacks against them (though not by discussing the controversial material they have published).
"Public attacks on Wiccans/pagans are harmful; ipso facto the attackers are not Wiccans or pagans but instead are nurturing in their psyche an internalized sectarian Christian paradigm."
As of interest are comments made by Bronwyn Frost, a daughter of Gaving and Yvonne Frost.
"I think open and honest discussion is welcome. This discussion has provoked more discussion between my parents, my husband, and myself and it reinforces for me that if I didn't have Wicca as a faith and learned my faith here, from these blogs and the words of some of the writers represented, I would not be Wiccan. I am Wiccan and proud and I am proud to be my parents' daughter. I am proud that they have taken the stand they did and that they have not wavered in their strength and faith that honest information about pagan practices are relevant to the discussion today."
Drew's responses so far have been to reiterate his opinion that the Frosts are encouraging pedophilia, and that they themselves have been participants as such. On his blog he has admitted to making a list of people and companies he feels are supporting the Frosts (and therefore supporting pedophilia and their controversial material) to present to the "national press and other media sources", and has written to Charles "Chuck" Colson (one of the Watergate criminals who subsequently became a born-again Christian involved in prison ministry) about the Frosts' book being available to prisoners.
"Did you know that there is a Wiccan organization, which has promoted the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca? Did you know that one of the leaders of Seax Wicca seems to promote violent hatred of homosexuals?"
So, if anything, Drew is certainly focused on his "goal" of casting out all who he feels are "supporting" pedophilia. But it remains to be seen if any of this will actually benefit endangered children, remove the controversial material the Frosts have written, or sway the greater Pagan community into action. So far it appears that the controversy of his ritual and quest may have overshadowed his full-throated defense of children. Tomorrow I will discuss the Frosts, their controversial material concerning minors, and what the Pagan/Heathen community could/should do about it.
Labels: AJ Drew, Ann Moura, Don Kraig, Gavin and Yvonne Frost, Isaac Bonewits, Lisa McSherry, Peg Aloi, Raven Grimassi, Raymond Buckland, Stephanie Taylor, Wicca
Comments:
The Frosts have certainly been controversial for a long time. When I attended a recent workshop of theirs at the Starwood festival 3 years ago titled "Heretical Witchcraft" it seemed little more than a celebration of their own self-proclaimed status as "heretics" in the Wiccan community. When they made claims that they were deliberately excluded from mention in any Llewellyn book, I naturally checked this out and found it not to be true. The tension in the workshop was significant, as people seemed to clearly divide themselves along mundane political lines during what was supposed to be a spiritual experience. I'm not sure what good can come from teachers that create those spaces.
But at the same time, I do not see how any good can come from this "witch war." I don't know of anyone who has actually been harmed by their teachings, or anyone who would be rescued or helped if those teachings disappeared.
The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic, perhaps surpassed only by attempting to involve Charles Colson in this matter. Having kept up with Mr. Colson and his writings, I can say that no good for Pagan communities can come from drawing Mr. Colson's attention. That seems tantamount to an unacceptable act of political and cultural brinksmanship.
Good points, Christopher.
I don't think anyone who has been following this issue questions the controversial nature of the Frosts' writings or the fact that the resultant attention has perhaps created publicity they may have welcomed.
Still, no physical crime has ever been proven against them, and to my knowledge Mr. Drew has done nothing to alert any law enforecment officials about any crime. And with this couple in their eighties, it is not likely they will perpetrate any such crime any time soon.
I also think anyone following this issue cannot deny that Mr. Drew's actions are geared more towards personal aggrandizement and a desire to foment conflict in the pagan comunity. It would not be the first time. His brand of "activism" does not seem to be about victims or causes, but about his own ego.
On a personal note: Although they are no longer available for viewing because they have been deleted by Mr. Drew, I spent a lot of time refuting the outright lies and inaccuracies regarding my own statements in this issue.
But since Jason has mentioned my name and affiliation here, I think it is worth reiterating that at no time on the PN forums or on Mr. Drew's blog did I use my real name, or mention my affiliation with any organization. I was "outed" on what was intended to be an anonymous forum, and my remarks taken out of context in an attempt to call my integrity and credibility into question.
Like Christopher, I am also an academic. But I am also an activist and member of the pagan community. I think it is worth considering the fallout from this situation in terms of how the community deals with rumor, innuendo, gossip, lies and slander. Once leveled, insidious accusations are difficult to dissociate oneself from. In this case, the best advice I can give is to consider the source, defend the innocent until proven guilty.
Dear Jason,
I believe that this is an very important discussion to have and I am grateful that you have chosen to tackle this difficult and complex issue. At the same time, I am concerned for those in our community who are survivors of sexual and physical abuse and who might find the information discussed here (and the texts quoted) upsetting, to say the least. As you may know, many survivors suffer from PTSD and/or depression. Others are working hard to stay clean and sober, after trying to medicate and mask their pain. So, if any of your readers feel that these talks bring up painful memories, I would like them to know that they can find support here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/spiral-steps/
This is an anonymous, non-cross talk meeting, and we deal with any and all issues. People from any faith (or none) are welcome and we have Pagans, Wiccans, Heathens and Druids at this board.
Of course, this is not the only support group available. There are Pagan focused 12 Step meetings, as well, and many of these are listed under "recovery" at The Witches Voice. www.witchvox.com
There are also many good survivor groups to be found on the web.
If your readers find that these discussions strike a nerve, I would urge them to seek support where ever and however they need it.
Go well, stay well,
Dj
I have never met the frosts personally but have studied many of their books. Some things to this day I do find useful in my own practice.
Bottom line is this: if there has been any crime past or present then certainly the authorities need to be contacted and the Frosts investigated. That is what the laws of this country state. Other than a statement in a book, is there any crime? No? Then this makes the person, Drew in this case, nothing more than a Witch Hunter.
As far as burning an effigy, that is a terrible thing to do and I don't blame anyone from pulling out of the proposed event. I do not support that sort of thing at all and any Witch owrth his or her Besom knows better than to do that..period. One bad turn (alledged) does not justify another.
Amanda S Owens-Merinass
I do not take issue with everyone who has touched Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice. I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice. Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.
She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter. As I understand it, she is a single mother. I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.
Concerning the constant statements here and elsewhere that I have announced that I would be burning the Frosts in effigy. I have heard that I am putting a sword in their head, decapitating them, disemboweling them, and a few other hysterical claims. I have said simply that I will be sacrificing them in effigy and that my reason for stating so was to cause folk to discuss the matter. As you, this blog owner, has stated that he will be discussing the content of that book on the morrow, my strategy appears to be working.
Concerning the allegations the ritual Sacrifice to Caring being black magic, I can not honestly tell you what it involves, as I am not writing it. The ritual is being written by survivors of rape and incest, both male and female. The folk who organize The Real Witches Ball and myself do have a very good time at the event, but it is not simply a party. Every year we choose a work, an endeavor which we feel will benefit our community. In the past we have worked with the Tempest Smith foundation, raising money and awareness of its cause with Tempest’s mother Denessa Smith. We have worked with the Red Cross in an event we call the Blood Sacrifice. I could go on, but the point being that this year we have decided to work with children’s charities and in particular children’s causes which address the issue of incest, molestation, and rape.
In the course of study, I have discovered an interesting fact in this matter. Among people who work with surviving children, there is an underline belief that silence about incest and child molestation is kin to enabling it to continue. In examining the more than three decades since the Frosts published the book in question, I find that it has been our silence, the pagan communities silence, which has enabled their view of Wicca to continue. Thus, I attempted to address those who remain silent.
In disgust, I have learned that they do not only remain silent; but many of those who I thought were simply silent were in fact willing to defend the book. Others, such as Peg Aloi go to the point of defending the Frosts and the book under alias after alias. Frankly, at this point I do not know what to think about the pagan community. There in I have met many a fine man and woman, but there in I have met many who would do nothing against something which seems so horrifically wrong.
I do not see the greatest problem as Gavin and Yvonne Frost raping children. I never have. In fact, I do not know that they have done such. I see the greatest problem as the folk, who will not only ignore what they have written, but to defend and promote it gleefully. My opinion is similar to those of the people who work with child survivors of incest and molestation, like the social workers and child psychologists I have discussed this with, I believe the greatest problem is not the molesters, but those who enable this sort of behavior. For if it were not for the enablers, the molesters would be less likely to offend.
But then, my opinion does not really matter as much as yours does. My opinion does not matter as much as the hundreds of folk who are talking about this now. I am but one person. You bloggers are thousands upon thousands. So I consider it an honor to be the one who stirred you into reviewing the content of that book here on one of the more popular pagan blogs.
Peg Aloi has indicated that the Frosts are innocent until proven guilty. Amanda has indicated that no law has been proven to be broken and thus I am a Witch Hunter. I am curious to know what they think of the North American Man Boy Love Association?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA
http://www.nambla.org/
To the best of my knowledge, they have not been responsible for raping children. They simply publish literature discussing why it should take place. In there case, the reason seems to be love. In the case of the Frosts book, the reason seems to be initiation into Wicca.
I wonder if Peg Aloi supports them as strongly as she supports Gavin and Yvonne Frost? I wonder if Amanda would feel that attacks on NAMBLA would amount to a witch hunt? After all, both the Frosts and NAMBLA are responsible for writing and circulating literature, which encourages pedophilia. The difference I see is that to the best of my knowledge, NAMBLA publishes opinions on why such should be legalized while Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote an instruction manual.
Honestly folk, someone please explain the difference here? Or are we, as a community, supposed to support, defend, and promote NAMBLA as well?
Okay, I am not going to pick on your spelling and usage errors here. But I do want to refute your dishonesty again:
Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice.
No, you did not. I never received an email from you. You may have written to Witchvox, but not ot me.
I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice.
No, I never received any such request.
Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.
I did not do this as a "response" to your imaginary email. I did so as a human being concerned by the libelous attack on the Frosts, I did this as an anonymous individual and at no time gave my name or mentioned any affiliation. I have already cleary stated this.
She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter.
No. Not possible, since I never received such a request. In any case, since I did not give my name or affiliation, the two things are not connected.
As I understand it, she is a single mother.
Oh, really? This is news to me. You must have me confused with someone else. I'd love to know who told you this piece of tripe.
I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.
What I find "disgusting and vile" is your constant attempt to call attention to yourself using whatever lowbrow, antagonistic and just plain nasty methods you can think of. But you know, your own actions have surely netted you some negative karma. The longer you keep it up, the worse it will be for you. As someoen who has written several books on Wicca, it is surprising you don't know this.
Due to the inappropriate and at times appalling things in some of their books, even if they were written long ago, I do not think the Frosts should be invited to present at Pagan events, nor do I think Pagans should promote the Frost's writings. At all. That is, unless and until the Frosts write something which *thoroughly* disavows the illegal and harmful practices they have in the past promoted. Not just a tacked-on legal disclaimer, but something that shows a thorough change of heart as well as remorse for any harm they may have caused.
Assuming it would not involve upsetting survivors in any way by their presence or statements, I would also ask them to do something to donate time and money to helping survivors of sexual abuse. I have to say, though, even then I would not personally feel right including the Frosts in general Pagan community events.
While I think it is appropriate and helpful to speak openly and honestly about our opinions on these matters, and find ways to make abusers feel the rage and pain of their victims, I don't think burning anyone in effigy is going to improve the situation. It smacks of an aggressive publicity stunt that will backfire and cause more harm to sane discourse than anything else. If there's something illegal the Frosts can be charged with, by all means go ahead; but public cursings and burnings only make the accuser look maniacal. Not a smart tactic.
Perhaps some sort of forum where those who feel harmed by the Frost's work would be more helpful. Perhaps this is happening on the Internet, but it may be something to consider doing in person if folks on all sides of the issue are open to it.
My wishes are for justice, and for the healing of those who've been victimized by sexual predators in the community, no matter whose books may have inspired or encouraged them.
You said “Drew's methods should be a wake-up call to the fact that a vacuum has existed in our inter-connected communities and that we should work towards forming an effective and accountable place for victims and those worried about possible predators to turn.”
Yes and it is working very well. Thank you for noticing and participating.
Concerning Christopher W. Chase, I am surprised that an academic would state “The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic” when I have never stated I was burning a thing in effigy. My words have been very clear, I intend to sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.
Concerning Charles Colson, a prison minister, I was responding to his public statement that he does not feel pagan clergy should be funded by the government in exchange for their service within US prisons. I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter.
You seem to think that nothing positive can come from my efforts. As you brought up Charles Colson, you must be aware of what I said to the man. You must be aware that one of the things that have come from my efforts is that the Ohio prison system has become aware of the pedophilic nature of the book in question. And yet, you seem to think that I should not involve people who contribute to the decision of funding Wiccan Chaplains in the prison system of the great value in identifying pedophilic literature. I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?
Protecting the reputation of the Wiccan community is irrelevant compared to the fact that there are Wiccan sex offenders in prison who stand a better chance of not repeating their crimes if they do not receive literature supporting those crimes in the name of Wicca.
With all due respect to Chase’s description as an academic, when he has a long history of sitting across a table from men who have raped children in the hopes that when the state releases them they will not repeat their crimes, well then once he has walked in my shoes on that subject, I might be willing to discuss the matter with him as I am with Christian ministers who must do the same thing for the same reasons.
My involvement with the prison system is not for the purpose of blindlessly defending Wicca. It is to better my children’s odds against being molested and raped.
AJ Drew:
"I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter."
You can't see the difference between making recommendations to prison officials as to which books are and are not appropriate for prisoners, and contacting people who are anti-Pagan (not to mention anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-evolution) ideologues? This points out why I have an issue with your tactics.
"I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?"
This sentence sums up exactly why I don't like your methods. Someone criticizes you for contacting Colson (who is no friend to anything Pagan) instead of simply contacting prison officials where you work, and you then ask them if they also want you to "keep your mouth shut" concerning racist material.
If you can't see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.
If you can't see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.
An excellent point. This does happen again and again when Mr. Drew tries to defend himself: a completely indiscriminate, irrelevant use of extreme hyperbole or impertinent examples. Recently he asked people if, in addition to "supporting" the Frosts , they also supported NAMBLA: in his mind, one must automatically include the other. I don't think he does this as a diversion, I think he really thinks it's the same thing, which is even more worriesome.
On discussing matters with Colson, like him or not he is greatly influencial & does not believe the government should fund Pagan clergy within the prison system. I believe the government should fund clergy in the prison system. So, I attempt to communicate with him and illustrate what pagans in the prison system ministry have already accomplished.
I think such open dialog is a good thing.
Post a Comment
The Frosts have certainly been controversial for a long time. When I attended a recent workshop of theirs at the Starwood festival 3 years ago titled "Heretical Witchcraft" it seemed little more than a celebration of their own self-proclaimed status as "heretics" in the Wiccan community. When they made claims that they were deliberately excluded from mention in any Llewellyn book, I naturally checked this out and found it not to be true. The tension in the workshop was significant, as people seemed to clearly divide themselves along mundane political lines during what was supposed to be a spiritual experience. I'm not sure what good can come from teachers that create those spaces.
But at the same time, I do not see how any good can come from this "witch war." I don't know of anyone who has actually been harmed by their teachings, or anyone who would be rescued or helped if those teachings disappeared.
The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic, perhaps surpassed only by attempting to involve Charles Colson in this matter. Having kept up with Mr. Colson and his writings, I can say that no good for Pagan communities can come from drawing Mr. Colson's attention. That seems tantamount to an unacceptable act of political and cultural brinksmanship.
Good points, Christopher.
I don't think anyone who has been following this issue questions the controversial nature of the Frosts' writings or the fact that the resultant attention has perhaps created publicity they may have welcomed.
Still, no physical crime has ever been proven against them, and to my knowledge Mr. Drew has done nothing to alert any law enforecment officials about any crime. And with this couple in their eighties, it is not likely they will perpetrate any such crime any time soon.
I also think anyone following this issue cannot deny that Mr. Drew's actions are geared more towards personal aggrandizement and a desire to foment conflict in the pagan comunity. It would not be the first time. His brand of "activism" does not seem to be about victims or causes, but about his own ego.
On a personal note: Although they are no longer available for viewing because they have been deleted by Mr. Drew, I spent a lot of time refuting the outright lies and inaccuracies regarding my own statements in this issue.
But since Jason has mentioned my name and affiliation here, I think it is worth reiterating that at no time on the PN forums or on Mr. Drew's blog did I use my real name, or mention my affiliation with any organization. I was "outed" on what was intended to be an anonymous forum, and my remarks taken out of context in an attempt to call my integrity and credibility into question.
Like Christopher, I am also an academic. But I am also an activist and member of the pagan community. I think it is worth considering the fallout from this situation in terms of how the community deals with rumor, innuendo, gossip, lies and slander. Once leveled, insidious accusations are difficult to dissociate oneself from. In this case, the best advice I can give is to consider the source, defend the innocent until proven guilty.
Dear Jason,
I believe that this is an very important discussion to have and I am grateful that you have chosen to tackle this difficult and complex issue. At the same time, I am concerned for those in our community who are survivors of sexual and physical abuse and who might find the information discussed here (and the texts quoted) upsetting, to say the least. As you may know, many survivors suffer from PTSD and/or depression. Others are working hard to stay clean and sober, after trying to medicate and mask their pain. So, if any of your readers feel that these talks bring up painful memories, I would like them to know that they can find support here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/spiral-steps/
This is an anonymous, non-cross talk meeting, and we deal with any and all issues. People from any faith (or none) are welcome and we have Pagans, Wiccans, Heathens and Druids at this board.
Of course, this is not the only support group available. There are Pagan focused 12 Step meetings, as well, and many of these are listed under "recovery" at The Witches Voice. www.witchvox.com
There are also many good survivor groups to be found on the web.
If your readers find that these discussions strike a nerve, I would urge them to seek support where ever and however they need it.
Go well, stay well,
Dj
I have never met the frosts personally but have studied many of their books. Some things to this day I do find useful in my own practice.
Bottom line is this: if there has been any crime past or present then certainly the authorities need to be contacted and the Frosts investigated. That is what the laws of this country state. Other than a statement in a book, is there any crime? No? Then this makes the person, Drew in this case, nothing more than a Witch Hunter.
As far as burning an effigy, that is a terrible thing to do and I don't blame anyone from pulling out of the proposed event. I do not support that sort of thing at all and any Witch owrth his or her Besom knows better than to do that..period. One bad turn (alledged) does not justify another.
Amanda S Owens-Merinass
I do not take issue with everyone who has touched Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice. I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice. Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.
She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter. As I understand it, she is a single mother. I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.
Concerning the constant statements here and elsewhere that I have announced that I would be burning the Frosts in effigy. I have heard that I am putting a sword in their head, decapitating them, disemboweling them, and a few other hysterical claims. I have said simply that I will be sacrificing them in effigy and that my reason for stating so was to cause folk to discuss the matter. As you, this blog owner, has stated that he will be discussing the content of that book on the morrow, my strategy appears to be working.
Concerning the allegations the ritual Sacrifice to Caring being black magic, I can not honestly tell you what it involves, as I am not writing it. The ritual is being written by survivors of rape and incest, both male and female. The folk who organize The Real Witches Ball and myself do have a very good time at the event, but it is not simply a party. Every year we choose a work, an endeavor which we feel will benefit our community. In the past we have worked with the Tempest Smith foundation, raising money and awareness of its cause with Tempest’s mother Denessa Smith. We have worked with the Red Cross in an event we call the Blood Sacrifice. I could go on, but the point being that this year we have decided to work with children’s charities and in particular children’s causes which address the issue of incest, molestation, and rape.
In the course of study, I have discovered an interesting fact in this matter. Among people who work with surviving children, there is an underline belief that silence about incest and child molestation is kin to enabling it to continue. In examining the more than three decades since the Frosts published the book in question, I find that it has been our silence, the pagan communities silence, which has enabled their view of Wicca to continue. Thus, I attempted to address those who remain silent.
In disgust, I have learned that they do not only remain silent; but many of those who I thought were simply silent were in fact willing to defend the book. Others, such as Peg Aloi go to the point of defending the Frosts and the book under alias after alias. Frankly, at this point I do not know what to think about the pagan community. There in I have met many a fine man and woman, but there in I have met many who would do nothing against something which seems so horrifically wrong.
I do not see the greatest problem as Gavin and Yvonne Frost raping children. I never have. In fact, I do not know that they have done such. I see the greatest problem as the folk, who will not only ignore what they have written, but to defend and promote it gleefully. My opinion is similar to those of the people who work with child survivors of incest and molestation, like the social workers and child psychologists I have discussed this with, I believe the greatest problem is not the molesters, but those who enable this sort of behavior. For if it were not for the enablers, the molesters would be less likely to offend.
But then, my opinion does not really matter as much as yours does. My opinion does not matter as much as the hundreds of folk who are talking about this now. I am but one person. You bloggers are thousands upon thousands. So I consider it an honor to be the one who stirred you into reviewing the content of that book here on one of the more popular pagan blogs.
Peg Aloi has indicated that the Frosts are innocent until proven guilty. Amanda has indicated that no law has been proven to be broken and thus I am a Witch Hunter. I am curious to know what they think of the North American Man Boy Love Association?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA
http://www.nambla.org/
To the best of my knowledge, they have not been responsible for raping children. They simply publish literature discussing why it should take place. In there case, the reason seems to be love. In the case of the Frosts book, the reason seems to be initiation into Wicca.
I wonder if Peg Aloi supports them as strongly as she supports Gavin and Yvonne Frost? I wonder if Amanda would feel that attacks on NAMBLA would amount to a witch hunt? After all, both the Frosts and NAMBLA are responsible for writing and circulating literature, which encourages pedophilia. The difference I see is that to the best of my knowledge, NAMBLA publishes opinions on why such should be legalized while Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote an instruction manual.
Honestly folk, someone please explain the difference here? Or are we, as a community, supposed to support, defend, and promote NAMBLA as well?
Okay, I am not going to pick on your spelling and usage errors here. But I do want to refute your dishonesty again:
Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice.
No, you did not. I never received an email from you. You may have written to Witchvox, but not ot me.
I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice.
No, I never received any such request.
Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.
I did not do this as a "response" to your imaginary email. I did so as a human being concerned by the libelous attack on the Frosts, I did this as an anonymous individual and at no time gave my name or mentioned any affiliation. I have already cleary stated this.
She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter.
No. Not possible, since I never received such a request. In any case, since I did not give my name or affiliation, the two things are not connected.
As I understand it, she is a single mother.
Oh, really? This is news to me. You must have me confused with someone else. I'd love to know who told you this piece of tripe.
I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.
What I find "disgusting and vile" is your constant attempt to call attention to yourself using whatever lowbrow, antagonistic and just plain nasty methods you can think of. But you know, your own actions have surely netted you some negative karma. The longer you keep it up, the worse it will be for you. As someoen who has written several books on Wicca, it is surprising you don't know this.
Due to the inappropriate and at times appalling things in some of their books, even if they were written long ago, I do not think the Frosts should be invited to present at Pagan events, nor do I think Pagans should promote the Frost's writings. At all. That is, unless and until the Frosts write something which *thoroughly* disavows the illegal and harmful practices they have in the past promoted. Not just a tacked-on legal disclaimer, but something that shows a thorough change of heart as well as remorse for any harm they may have caused.
Assuming it would not involve upsetting survivors in any way by their presence or statements, I would also ask them to do something to donate time and money to helping survivors of sexual abuse. I have to say, though, even then I would not personally feel right including the Frosts in general Pagan community events.
While I think it is appropriate and helpful to speak openly and honestly about our opinions on these matters, and find ways to make abusers feel the rage and pain of their victims, I don't think burning anyone in effigy is going to improve the situation. It smacks of an aggressive publicity stunt that will backfire and cause more harm to sane discourse than anything else. If there's something illegal the Frosts can be charged with, by all means go ahead; but public cursings and burnings only make the accuser look maniacal. Not a smart tactic.
Perhaps some sort of forum where those who feel harmed by the Frost's work would be more helpful. Perhaps this is happening on the Internet, but it may be something to consider doing in person if folks on all sides of the issue are open to it.
My wishes are for justice, and for the healing of those who've been victimized by sexual predators in the community, no matter whose books may have inspired or encouraged them.
You said “Drew's methods should be a wake-up call to the fact that a vacuum has existed in our inter-connected communities and that we should work towards forming an effective and accountable place for victims and those worried about possible predators to turn.”
Yes and it is working very well. Thank you for noticing and participating.
Concerning Christopher W. Chase, I am surprised that an academic would state “The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic” when I have never stated I was burning a thing in effigy. My words have been very clear, I intend to sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.
Concerning Charles Colson, a prison minister, I was responding to his public statement that he does not feel pagan clergy should be funded by the government in exchange for their service within US prisons. I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter.
You seem to think that nothing positive can come from my efforts. As you brought up Charles Colson, you must be aware of what I said to the man. You must be aware that one of the things that have come from my efforts is that the Ohio prison system has become aware of the pedophilic nature of the book in question. And yet, you seem to think that I should not involve people who contribute to the decision of funding Wiccan Chaplains in the prison system of the great value in identifying pedophilic literature. I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?
Protecting the reputation of the Wiccan community is irrelevant compared to the fact that there are Wiccan sex offenders in prison who stand a better chance of not repeating their crimes if they do not receive literature supporting those crimes in the name of Wicca.
With all due respect to Chase’s description as an academic, when he has a long history of sitting across a table from men who have raped children in the hopes that when the state releases them they will not repeat their crimes, well then once he has walked in my shoes on that subject, I might be willing to discuss the matter with him as I am with Christian ministers who must do the same thing for the same reasons.
My involvement with the prison system is not for the purpose of blindlessly defending Wicca. It is to better my children’s odds against being molested and raped.
AJ Drew:
"I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter."
You can't see the difference between making recommendations to prison officials as to which books are and are not appropriate for prisoners, and contacting people who are anti-Pagan (not to mention anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-evolution) ideologues? This points out why I have an issue with your tactics.
"I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?"
This sentence sums up exactly why I don't like your methods. Someone criticizes you for contacting Colson (who is no friend to anything Pagan) instead of simply contacting prison officials where you work, and you then ask them if they also want you to "keep your mouth shut" concerning racist material.
If you can't see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.
If you can't see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.
An excellent point. This does happen again and again when Mr. Drew tries to defend himself: a completely indiscriminate, irrelevant use of extreme hyperbole or impertinent examples. Recently he asked people if, in addition to "supporting" the Frosts , they also supported NAMBLA: in his mind, one must automatically include the other. I don't think he does this as a diversion, I think he really thinks it's the same thing, which is even more worriesome.
On discussing matters with Colson, like him or not he is greatly influencial & does not believe the government should fund Pagan clergy within the prison system. I believe the government should fund clergy in the prison system. So, I attempt to communicate with him and illustrate what pagans in the prison system ministry have already accomplished.
I think such open dialog is a good thing.
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