8.11.2007
The Frosts and What to Do
[This is part two of a two-part series that will deal directly with the issue of the Frosts' writing, and what to do about pedophilia, and writings that the community feels supports pedophilia. Yesterday's post updated you on the fallout of A.J. Drew's decision to "sacrifice" Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy at his "International Real Witches Ball". All comments are being moderated, so please be civil.]
I think it is fair to say that no sane person advocates or encourages pedophilia. While our culture has become ever more permissive to a variety of once taboo subjects, the sanctity of children has (for the most part) remained non-negotiable. So it is always a serious matter when accusations of not only promoting, but actively participating in the abuse of children are raised. In this most recent eruption within the Pagan/Heathen community I believe that it is fair to say that more heat than light has been generated, and that the protection of children within our community has become an almost abstract point as emotions have risen and rival camps formed.
Do Gavin and Yvonne Frost promote pedophilia and child abuse in their literature? It has been an issue that has plagued the Pagan community since the book in question was first published in 1972. In the eighties the Frosts were "put on trial" by Carl and Sandra Weschcke (who run Llewellyn publications) for their controversial "initiation" chapter. Isaac Bonewits and Oberon Zell acted as the defense team, while Herman Slater and Lady Sheba were the prosecutors. The Frosts were found "guilty", though I have no idea what the sentence was, or if any real ramifications emerged from that trial (they even attended a Llewellyn-run event after the trial). It is notable that this "trial" was done internally within the community and that no-one considered contacting the law on the matter. But according to Ian Corrigan, the book was mostly seen as nonsense and not taken seriously by many in the community.
"When this book came out in the early 70s, it was considered abject nonsense by the few folks who had any actual knowledge of Wicca in those days. The Frosts came out of nowhere, appropriating the term 'Wicca' for their own version of what religious witchcraft might be. Their synthesis bore almost no resemblance to the traditions of Wicca, either in ritual or theology, and certainly not in the grotesque suggestions about the sexual upbringing of children. It was a different age in those days, as 'swinging' emerged as a lifestyle and many folks hoped for a real revolution in sexual mores - too bad the Frosts chose to add their wacky ideas to something that they chose to call 'Wicca'. This book was an embarrasment in 1972, and it's an embarrasment now. It should be ignored by anyone interested in learning witchcraft or wicca."
The Frosts have been attacked for so many years on this subject (with no legal ramifications), that they see the controversy as a selling point.
"An old cliche points out that all advertising is good advertising. The most recent spike on the sales graph of The Witch's Bible has once again proven the accuracy of the cliche. Our thanks, then, to people who attack any of our published works!"
Though, despite their claims of being impervious to criticism, they did add a disclaimer to the chapter in the most recent (1999) edition.
"No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen."
But for some (including A.J. Drew) such measures are too little, and too late. We also live in an age where child predation, abuse, and molestation are an ever-present issue with shows like "To Catch a Predator" and online groups like Perverted Justice encouraging an almost vigilante mindset. The law and government-supported social services are often painted as ineffectual at catching predators or protecting children, and in this atmosphere it is little wonder that self-appointed Pagan activists would go for the most apparent target, the Frosts and their chapter on child-initiation.
But has any of this helped protect Pagan children, or done anything to isolate the Frosts if they are indeed as guilty as Drew claims? Pagan academic Christopher Chase voices the skepticism some feel at this recent "De-Frosting" campaign.
"I do not see how any good can come from this "witch war." I don't know of anyone who has actually been harmed by their teachings, or anyone who would be rescued or helped if those teachings disappeared. The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic, perhaps surpassed only by attempting to involve Charles Colson in this matter. Having kept up with Mr. Colson and his writings, I can say that no good for Pagan communities can come from drawing Mr. Colson's attention. That seems tantamount to an unacceptable act of political and cultural brinksmanship."
If A.J. Drew's methods are counter-productive, what should the Pagan community do with literature they feel promotes pedophilia, and what should the community do about persons they feel endanger children within their community? Here are some suggestions.
Know what the Federal and State laws dictate for each situation, and if you feel a piece of writing or a person(s) have violated them, do not hesitate to report it to the appropriate authorities that are going to do something, not to friends or associates who have no power over the situation. To know what various State laws are concerning child welfare, you can search from this governmental web site. You can read a run-down of all applicable Federal laws as well. More specifically, Federal Public Law No: 108-21 stipulates that there is no statute of limitations for the sexual or physical abuse of a child. So if there is indeed proof of abuse, no matter how long ago, it should still be reported.
If the person(s) or literature doesn't break any applicable laws (or if you have no proof that they have done so), but you feel their writings/person(s) are dangerous to the community, voice your concerns but avoid defamation. In the case of public figures any form of "actual malice" should be avoided. You can read more about libel law, here. An article discussing the emerging field of online libel can be found, here.
When promoting your concerns to the community, avoid demonizing those unconvinced by your claims, those reserving judgment, and those who criticize your methods. The logical fallacy of "guilt by association" should be avoided (I believe Person A. supports pedophilia, Person B. criticized my methods, therefore Person B. supports pedophilia).
In a final note, I think a pan-Pagan effort to deal with predators is needed. Sometimes those involved in a subculture can be hesitant to speak against fellow members or to seek help outside the community. Drew's methods should be a wake-up call to the fact that a vacuum has existed in our inter-connected communities and that we should work towards forming an effective and accountable place for victims and those worried about possible predators to turn. Educational campaigns can be put in place, and national and local groups can be networked in a responsible way to avoid gossip, misinformation, and vigilantism. We can make our community a safer place, but only by working together in a calm and rational manner. I hope those of you who read my blog and are involved in national groups or hold leadership positions in local communities take this to heart and work toward building a safer community.
Labels: AJ Drew, Children, Gavin and Yvonne Frost, Paganism, Wicca, Witchcraft
Comments:
A very interesting topic and one that deserves much consideration. My biases on this matter stem from my own history as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, my experience as a mother of a survivor of CSA and the fact that I was once a 16 year old student of the Frost's (through their distance learning program).
First, I think ageism is an issue. Defining all humans who have not yet witnessed their 18th sun cycle as "children" is demeaning and, in some cases, abusive in and of itself. Carrying a flag for "Children's Rights" while ignoring the damage caused by legally limiting mature minds in young bodies to mere "children" is a shameful, though common and accepted, position to take.
Second, I wonder if there are "victims" who have come forward to substantiate these "charges" of abuse?
Third, I think the Frost's have done much good in terms of promoting "witchcraft" to those, like me, who would not otherwise have been exposed to it. There are MANY false teachers out here and to single out only two of them seems like an overly simplistic way to make ourselves feel better about our own weaknesses and the weaknesses of the Pagan and Wiccan movements in general.
Don't burn, learn!
A number of years ago, when I restarted a my journey after walking away for a while, some of the books that I read where written by the Frosts. It often bothered me thier focus on sex in general. They have alot to offer for those that have lost thier way or are trying to figure out if this particular way of life is for them. I think that "burning" the Frosts goes against what Wicca is about. I also feel that our community has gone through enough with trying to let the world know we are not evil, or practice devil worship that this entire situation is setting us back so many years.
Why does the protection of our wiccan children have to be different then the protection given to other children. The literature should be stopped, and the should be punished for promoting sex with children and they shoudl be punished in court just like any other person that was pushing pedophila. It is wrong, I don't care what your belief system is. There is never a just cause for abusing children. And that is what sexual initiation with children would be, abuse.
Do not lower yourself to that level and promote a sacrifice that goes against the our fundamental beliefs. Take it to the authorities.
Just my thoughts.... Blessed Be~
Before I am accused of being bias against one side or the other, I feel that both the Frosts and Mr. Drew are in the wrong on this particular issue and am a supporter of neither. That being said.
It has always been my general line of thought that anyone who does anything for the ‘shock effect’ (Isaac Bonewits quoted on this blog on 8/10/07) has next to nothing in the way of actual talent and is best ignored.
Ignored in this case being: them not invited to speak at public pagan-centric events, their books not being sold in pagan owned stores, when being asked about them by the media stating “I find some of the concepts and lack of explanations disturbing and refuse to discuss the issue further”, ect. – in short a general passive boycott.
No burning at the stake, no saber rattling, but the withholding of my hard earned money. Being a firm believer that both cream and garbage rise to the top but garbage will again sink to the bottom without outside support.
That is the best course of action in this particular case as there is a lack of evidence of any pedophilic activities.
My two cents and plan of action for what it’s worth.
~Illisse
Thank you for posting practical suggestions, Jason. In the eighties I was involved in a situation where we had to get a sexual predator kicked out of the Pagan community. It was difficult, as some tried to invoke the "Craft law" of never calling the cops on other Witches. Odd, as the predator in question wasn't even a member of one of the traditions that espouses that. It's rare to hear people invoke that protection these days, but I want to note for others reading this that the idea that Witches, of any tradition, should somehow be above the law is not, and never was, a common Pagan belief. If someone molests, rapes or otherwise violates another human being, do all you can do to stop them, and one of the most important things is calling the cops.
What I don't believe that some are understanding is that Mr. Drew had tried to raise awareness and attention to this subject for years and the attempts fell on deaf uninterested ears. The method is unfortunate but it IS receiving the desired goal... The fact that you are writing in your blog and reporting it and others are looking into the issue is the whole point. People are no longer ignoring it with heads in the sand.
As for 'burning in effigy'- LOL Well, let's just say people read alot into things when they get their knickers into a knot ;)
kya,
The Frosts use the term 'child' in their book and couple it with phrasing such as 'at the earliest possible age' and 'when the physical attributes of reproduction are present'. US law states that doing what they write about doing to a 'child' (using their terms) is illegal.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that it is not acceptable to get a child drunk, give them a live sex show and then send them off for their own sexual initiation. Not engaging in drunken sex is not going to limit any 'mature mind' in a child's body.
I notice that you don't address the issue- whether sex with children is acceptable or not. Only that not doing it can 'limit their mind'... Would you care to address the issue of sexual initiation of children at this time?
That is what Mr. Drew seems to be desiring actually- that the attention be drawn and that events stop hosting them as speakers, and people choose to avoid buying their books etc. But without the initial saber rattling, the awareness is not raised.
Mom-e,
If Mr. Drew wanted my attention on the issue he could have simply sent me an e-mail (he has never done so). The idea that you have to use the methods he has to "raise awareness" is completely false.
I have worked for years with activist organizations, and I can tell you that progress is often slow, and that coalition building can be frustrating. It can often become tempting to do something "drastic" to gain attention, but while that attention is often intense and seems productive, it also leaves no infrastructure to maintain momentum on the issue.
To a certain extent I believe Drew prizes his "outsider, lone sane voice in the wilderness" persona, but "activists" of that sort don't build long-lasting movements, and often "burn-out" from their reliance on shock-tactics and attacks.
Yes, this issue is getting attention, but Drew's methods are to a large extent gaining more "press" than the actual issue of child endangerment in our community. THAT is a real tragedy that could have been avoided by sending me and other "prominent" bloggers a press release.
Good Day, Friend:
Thank you for posting all these good posts that helped me to understand the controversy that is happening here.
I must say, I admire your moderation and sanity in the midst of this storm. I must also make the observation that I am happy to be a part of a Pagan Movement- Asatru- which is safely distant from the "mainstream" Pagan movement- that thing you call the "pagan community", but which really seems to be the "Wiccan community".
We Asatruar, and to a lesser extent, those Traditional (non-wiccan) Witches for whom I have written and with whom I work, have the great pleasure of being distant from all this nonsense. But since I believe that the "prime duty of the wise is involvement", and since I have seen the offending work of the Frosts' in question, I guess I should say that I support Drew fully.
I am a father, and the father of a daughter. The Frosts, in the name of their fully invented "craft", instructed and encouraged people in the molestation of children, of underage girls. I understand that some people- with whom I vociferously disagree- think that it's wrong to call underage people "children" and have issues with our society's standards and cut-off ages for "adulthood" and the like. I think that the system we have works just fine. Age 17 is, in most states, the age of consent for sexual activities, and it's even lower in other places. The people have decided these ages; the states have decided them.
Like it or not, it's the law, and it protects a lot of people. It protects because, despite the wishful thinking of many, girls and boys don't advance in maturity today as they used to in the "old days". We consider our children to 'grow up faster' nowadays, but I see only stunted growth everywhere I look- I don't think seeing breasts and cocks on television or hearing sexual references in media today encourages rapid maturity; I think it encourages exactly the opposite.
Drew is right to be offended by these trashy writings. He's also well within his rights to protest them however he sees fit. He can burn effigies all night- this is a free land, and he's not burning people. He's making a moral, political, and even spiritual statement, one that I think the "Pagan community" needs to hear more of- for too long the "Pagan community" has been in the grip of what amounts to sexual degradation and debauchery, all in the name of "liberation from patriarchal repression".
It's an old story that died out with the hippies, and which I only find being supported actively today by sexual predators (and I've known some) and very, very sexually immature people whom we refer to as "playgans".
I'm not a prude- I'm quite the opposite, but there is a way to express the Heathen and Pagan notion that sexuality is natural and immune to the guilt heaped onto it by certain religious traditions, and then there are extremes that any person of reason can see are harmful or disgusting. A short search of the annals of history present Historical Pagan societies as NOT being as liberal about sex as most modern Pagans would like to present.
I support Drew, and I hope that he gains some success- but sadly, your final point is disturbingly impossible to avoid: this will generate quite a lot of publicity, and that is not a good thing. All the same, I know that Drew has to do what he feels is right. And his spirit is guided correctly, to face a perversion that never should have emerged in the first place.
I feel no personal need to join Drew in some form of sorcerous retaliation against the Frosts, because I know deep in my bones that when these two malignants finally rattle out their last breaths, their journey down the Hel-way will not be a pleasant one, and that the twisted natures within them will become seeds that find purchase in the depths of the Underworld, never to grow or be seen again. Death and the Justice of the Gods will sever this particular blight from the face of day-lit decency.
I love your blog, by the way- thank you for giving me the chance to comment here.
Wisdom guide you always:
Robin Artisson
The word child is used to denote "not yet adult" more than anything else. I don't think having an adult conversation about persons under the age of 18 is belittling a teenager in any way.
As for being distanced from the Wiccan/Pagan Community, I would have to disagree. We are all considered in the same light by those outside our community. What is written by a Wiccan author reflects on all of us, regardless of our specific path. I don't have children, but I'll be damned if I'll be painted with a Frost brush! We can run and we can hide, but this issue will bite us in the butt no matter what. Its time we take a stand against abuse in the name of our community!
AJ Drew said he would "sacrifice the Frosts in effigy". Where is the notion of burning the Frosts in effigy coming from? Perhaps the word sacrifice should be examined more closely. Does it mean to destroy? Or to give? Think about that before bashing Mr Drew for something no one knows the details of yet.
Bright Blessings,
Shaitan Fenriz
Shaitan Fenriz:
You may disagree regarding my notion of "distance" from the "Pagan community", but I personally (and many others like me) don't believe that there is a unified, monolithic "pagan community". I am not Wiccan; what a Wiccan author says does not reflect on me anymore than what a Baptist preacher writes reflects poorly on the Catholic church. I understand what you are trying to say (I think) but I just don't view things that way. Asatru is an ethnic religion, and a very different kind of religion from Wicca. They are as different as night is from day. People who lump us together with Wiccans are ignorant; their opinion means nothing to me, except as an invitation to correct them.
Drew is not using the term "sacrifice" in the way that I understand the word, or in the way it was understood typically by Indo-European Pagans of the past. He is clearly intending a more modern rendering of the word "sacrifice", as in "giving up something by destruction or lasting separation". He is not accessing the term according to its more ancient meaning. And I never bashed Drew; I agreed that he should proceed, proudly.
Be well:
RA
Post a Comment
A very interesting topic and one that deserves much consideration. My biases on this matter stem from my own history as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, my experience as a mother of a survivor of CSA and the fact that I was once a 16 year old student of the Frost's (through their distance learning program).
First, I think ageism is an issue. Defining all humans who have not yet witnessed their 18th sun cycle as "children" is demeaning and, in some cases, abusive in and of itself. Carrying a flag for "Children's Rights" while ignoring the damage caused by legally limiting mature minds in young bodies to mere "children" is a shameful, though common and accepted, position to take.
Second, I wonder if there are "victims" who have come forward to substantiate these "charges" of abuse?
Third, I think the Frost's have done much good in terms of promoting "witchcraft" to those, like me, who would not otherwise have been exposed to it. There are MANY false teachers out here and to single out only two of them seems like an overly simplistic way to make ourselves feel better about our own weaknesses and the weaknesses of the Pagan and Wiccan movements in general.
Don't burn, learn!
A number of years ago, when I restarted a my journey after walking away for a while, some of the books that I read where written by the Frosts. It often bothered me thier focus on sex in general. They have alot to offer for those that have lost thier way or are trying to figure out if this particular way of life is for them. I think that "burning" the Frosts goes against what Wicca is about. I also feel that our community has gone through enough with trying to let the world know we are not evil, or practice devil worship that this entire situation is setting us back so many years.
Why does the protection of our wiccan children have to be different then the protection given to other children. The literature should be stopped, and the should be punished for promoting sex with children and they shoudl be punished in court just like any other person that was pushing pedophila. It is wrong, I don't care what your belief system is. There is never a just cause for abusing children. And that is what sexual initiation with children would be, abuse.
Do not lower yourself to that level and promote a sacrifice that goes against the our fundamental beliefs. Take it to the authorities.
Just my thoughts.... Blessed Be~
Before I am accused of being bias against one side or the other, I feel that both the Frosts and Mr. Drew are in the wrong on this particular issue and am a supporter of neither. That being said.
It has always been my general line of thought that anyone who does anything for the ‘shock effect’ (Isaac Bonewits quoted on this blog on 8/10/07) has next to nothing in the way of actual talent and is best ignored.
Ignored in this case being: them not invited to speak at public pagan-centric events, their books not being sold in pagan owned stores, when being asked about them by the media stating “I find some of the concepts and lack of explanations disturbing and refuse to discuss the issue further”, ect. – in short a general passive boycott.
No burning at the stake, no saber rattling, but the withholding of my hard earned money. Being a firm believer that both cream and garbage rise to the top but garbage will again sink to the bottom without outside support.
That is the best course of action in this particular case as there is a lack of evidence of any pedophilic activities.
My two cents and plan of action for what it’s worth.
~Illisse
Thank you for posting practical suggestions, Jason. In the eighties I was involved in a situation where we had to get a sexual predator kicked out of the Pagan community. It was difficult, as some tried to invoke the "Craft law" of never calling the cops on other Witches. Odd, as the predator in question wasn't even a member of one of the traditions that espouses that. It's rare to hear people invoke that protection these days, but I want to note for others reading this that the idea that Witches, of any tradition, should somehow be above the law is not, and never was, a common Pagan belief. If someone molests, rapes or otherwise violates another human being, do all you can do to stop them, and one of the most important things is calling the cops.
What I don't believe that some are understanding is that Mr. Drew had tried to raise awareness and attention to this subject for years and the attempts fell on deaf uninterested ears. The method is unfortunate but it IS receiving the desired goal... The fact that you are writing in your blog and reporting it and others are looking into the issue is the whole point. People are no longer ignoring it with heads in the sand.
As for 'burning in effigy'- LOL Well, let's just say people read alot into things when they get their knickers into a knot ;)
kya,
The Frosts use the term 'child' in their book and couple it with phrasing such as 'at the earliest possible age' and 'when the physical attributes of reproduction are present'. US law states that doing what they write about doing to a 'child' (using their terms) is illegal.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that it is not acceptable to get a child drunk, give them a live sex show and then send them off for their own sexual initiation. Not engaging in drunken sex is not going to limit any 'mature mind' in a child's body.
I notice that you don't address the issue- whether sex with children is acceptable or not. Only that not doing it can 'limit their mind'... Would you care to address the issue of sexual initiation of children at this time?
That is what Mr. Drew seems to be desiring actually- that the attention be drawn and that events stop hosting them as speakers, and people choose to avoid buying their books etc. But without the initial saber rattling, the awareness is not raised.
Mom-e,
If Mr. Drew wanted my attention on the issue he could have simply sent me an e-mail (he has never done so). The idea that you have to use the methods he has to "raise awareness" is completely false.
I have worked for years with activist organizations, and I can tell you that progress is often slow, and that coalition building can be frustrating. It can often become tempting to do something "drastic" to gain attention, but while that attention is often intense and seems productive, it also leaves no infrastructure to maintain momentum on the issue.
To a certain extent I believe Drew prizes his "outsider, lone sane voice in the wilderness" persona, but "activists" of that sort don't build long-lasting movements, and often "burn-out" from their reliance on shock-tactics and attacks.
Yes, this issue is getting attention, but Drew's methods are to a large extent gaining more "press" than the actual issue of child endangerment in our community. THAT is a real tragedy that could have been avoided by sending me and other "prominent" bloggers a press release.
Good Day, Friend:
Thank you for posting all these good posts that helped me to understand the controversy that is happening here.
I must say, I admire your moderation and sanity in the midst of this storm. I must also make the observation that I am happy to be a part of a Pagan Movement- Asatru- which is safely distant from the "mainstream" Pagan movement- that thing you call the "pagan community", but which really seems to be the "Wiccan community".
We Asatruar, and to a lesser extent, those Traditional (non-wiccan) Witches for whom I have written and with whom I work, have the great pleasure of being distant from all this nonsense. But since I believe that the "prime duty of the wise is involvement", and since I have seen the offending work of the Frosts' in question, I guess I should say that I support Drew fully.
I am a father, and the father of a daughter. The Frosts, in the name of their fully invented "craft", instructed and encouraged people in the molestation of children, of underage girls. I understand that some people- with whom I vociferously disagree- think that it's wrong to call underage people "children" and have issues with our society's standards and cut-off ages for "adulthood" and the like. I think that the system we have works just fine. Age 17 is, in most states, the age of consent for sexual activities, and it's even lower in other places. The people have decided these ages; the states have decided them.
Like it or not, it's the law, and it protects a lot of people. It protects because, despite the wishful thinking of many, girls and boys don't advance in maturity today as they used to in the "old days". We consider our children to 'grow up faster' nowadays, but I see only stunted growth everywhere I look- I don't think seeing breasts and cocks on television or hearing sexual references in media today encourages rapid maturity; I think it encourages exactly the opposite.
Drew is right to be offended by these trashy writings. He's also well within his rights to protest them however he sees fit. He can burn effigies all night- this is a free land, and he's not burning people. He's making a moral, political, and even spiritual statement, one that I think the "Pagan community" needs to hear more of- for too long the "Pagan community" has been in the grip of what amounts to sexual degradation and debauchery, all in the name of "liberation from patriarchal repression".
It's an old story that died out with the hippies, and which I only find being supported actively today by sexual predators (and I've known some) and very, very sexually immature people whom we refer to as "playgans".
I'm not a prude- I'm quite the opposite, but there is a way to express the Heathen and Pagan notion that sexuality is natural and immune to the guilt heaped onto it by certain religious traditions, and then there are extremes that any person of reason can see are harmful or disgusting. A short search of the annals of history present Historical Pagan societies as NOT being as liberal about sex as most modern Pagans would like to present.
I support Drew, and I hope that he gains some success- but sadly, your final point is disturbingly impossible to avoid: this will generate quite a lot of publicity, and that is not a good thing. All the same, I know that Drew has to do what he feels is right. And his spirit is guided correctly, to face a perversion that never should have emerged in the first place.
I feel no personal need to join Drew in some form of sorcerous retaliation against the Frosts, because I know deep in my bones that when these two malignants finally rattle out their last breaths, their journey down the Hel-way will not be a pleasant one, and that the twisted natures within them will become seeds that find purchase in the depths of the Underworld, never to grow or be seen again. Death and the Justice of the Gods will sever this particular blight from the face of day-lit decency.
I love your blog, by the way- thank you for giving me the chance to comment here.
Wisdom guide you always:
Robin Artisson
The word child is used to denote "not yet adult" more than anything else. I don't think having an adult conversation about persons under the age of 18 is belittling a teenager in any way.
As for being distanced from the Wiccan/Pagan Community, I would have to disagree. We are all considered in the same light by those outside our community. What is written by a Wiccan author reflects on all of us, regardless of our specific path. I don't have children, but I'll be damned if I'll be painted with a Frost brush! We can run and we can hide, but this issue will bite us in the butt no matter what. Its time we take a stand against abuse in the name of our community!
AJ Drew said he would "sacrifice the Frosts in effigy". Where is the notion of burning the Frosts in effigy coming from? Perhaps the word sacrifice should be examined more closely. Does it mean to destroy? Or to give? Think about that before bashing Mr Drew for something no one knows the details of yet.
Bright Blessings,
Shaitan Fenriz
Shaitan Fenriz:
You may disagree regarding my notion of "distance" from the "Pagan community", but I personally (and many others like me) don't believe that there is a unified, monolithic "pagan community". I am not Wiccan; what a Wiccan author says does not reflect on me anymore than what a Baptist preacher writes reflects poorly on the Catholic church. I understand what you are trying to say (I think) but I just don't view things that way. Asatru is an ethnic religion, and a very different kind of religion from Wicca. They are as different as night is from day. People who lump us together with Wiccans are ignorant; their opinion means nothing to me, except as an invitation to correct them.
Drew is not using the term "sacrifice" in the way that I understand the word, or in the way it was understood typically by Indo-European Pagans of the past. He is clearly intending a more modern rendering of the word "sacrifice", as in "giving up something by destruction or lasting separation". He is not accessing the term according to its more ancient meaning. And I never bashed Drew; I agreed that he should proceed, proudly.
Be well:
RA
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