6.28.2008
Kathie Lee Gifford and the "Nasty" Pagan Controversy
Perhaps I've developed outrage fatigue from covering religious news for so many years, but I just can't seem to muster much energy for the supposed controversy over vacuous morning-show host Kathie Lee Gifford's "anti-pagan" comments.
The trivia question that spurred a tempest in a tea-pot.
"Wednesday June 25th on the Today Show, host Kathy Lee Gifford was quizzing guests of a wedding on wedding traditions. On a question as to the origin of wearing the wedding ring on your left ring finger, an option for an answer was that "Pagans believed it was bad luck to carry metal on the right side." Reading the question aloud, Gifford chose to say "The Pagans, the nasty, bad, Pagans, believed ....." For any other religion, she would not have made the comment, and if she had, a public apology would most likely be released very quickly. The pagan community should not stand for it. Her personal belief may be that we are "nasty and bad", but it does not make it alright for her to say so on national television."
I watched the offending video clip in question, and I just don't see anything worth threats of boycott or starting a petition. I certainly don't agree with Ellen Evert Hopman & Dana Corby's assertion that her off-the-cuff statement amounted to "hate speech".
"Ms. Gifford's hate speech has done harm to American Pagans' ability to live in peace with our neighbors of other faiths. By allowing her hate speech to be broadcast, her direct employer the TODAY Show, and their network, NBC, participate in that hate speech."
Hate speech is something very specific, and Gifford's off-the-cuff riffing on a trivia question doesn't even come close to qualifying. I very much doubt Gifford even realizes there is a modern Paganism movement, much less has a nuanced understanding of pre-Christian religion (she's a born-again Christian). I question the petition's assertion that any Pagan will have their quality of life affected in any way because of what a Regis Philbin cast-off said. This action by Pagans, far from chastising the folks at the Today Show, has only provided more grist for Gifford's "comedic" mill.
I'd like to think that I'm fairly tenacious in defense of modern Paganism. I have worked daily to follow stories and bring important issues to light. There are many serious issues facing modern Pagan faiths, and we should remain vigilant and address them. However, the last thing I want to see is for Pagans to adopt the tactics of groups like the Catholic League. Constantly scanning the news looking for the next outrage, the next rallying cry for those who believe some great religious conflict is brewing. I don't want us to become unable to laugh off something stupid, I don't want us to become unable to tell the difference between an innocuous trifle, and real anti-Pagan hate speech.
Should you boycott The Today Show? Sure, if only because it's stupid, lowest-common-denominator television that enriches no one. Not because Kathie Lee Gifford allegedly "hates" Pagans. Let's turn our attention to the endemic discrimination against Pagans in prisons, or the improper influence of Christianity on our military, or the legislative strategies that seek to enshrine a Christian civil religion and relegate religious minorities to second-class status, or the role of modern Pagans in politics. Heck, we could even talk about the reality television shows that actually do some damage to our reputation. What we shouldn't do is manufacture a controversy where one doesn't actually exist.
PS If George Carlin has gone on The Today Show and called Chritianity "nasty" and "bad" (and he's called it far worse things than that) would you call it "hate speech"? Would you think Christians were correct in calling for a boycott, or would you think such an action was an overreaction?
Labels: hate crime, Kathie Lee Gifford, Paganism, Religion, Television, The Today Show
Comments:
What should we do next...?
How 'bout we burn all the Hammer/Amicus/Argento horror movies, where witches are portrayed as evil! Oh boy, a new 'Burning Times'. Heh!
cheers,
Gene
I figured you'd be blogging about this soon Jason. I tend to agree with your take on it. Here is what I said over on Medusa Coils yesterday -
Did you listen to the video? I just did and, while it is true that Kathy Lee Gifford did say "the nasty bad pagans", I am pretty sure that she was being sarcastic and did not mean it seriously. My interpretation of what she said, based on her light-hearted tone, is that she was sarcastically mocking people who believe that pagans are "nasty" or "bad" and thus was actually expressing some sympathy for, or solidarity with, pagans. I could be mistaken but that is how what she said comes across to me. I did not detect any malice in her tone of voice. The pagans who are making a big issue about this may just end up with some cosmic egg on their face. I really think that that there are better battles to pick and that this petition will not generate good PR for the pagan community.
In light of Kathie Lee's cryptic "apology" I later said this -
Well after seeing that I would say that, more than anything else, an explanation is in order. I long ago learned that an expedient apology arising from demands for an apology is not worth the breath it is spoken with or the paper that it is written on. If Kathie Lee's "blanket apology" is her response to pagan complaints about her labeling of pagans as "nasty" or "bad" it is far from acceptable and, as is often the case, only exacerbates the problem. At this stage Kathie Lee has some explaining to do regarding not only her description of pagans "nasty" and "bad" but also her sorry excuse for an apology.
I signed the petition...lest only the over reactive fluffs become the only voice to speak. I agree that the comment of "Ms. Gifford's hate speech has done harm to American Pagans' ability to live in peace with our neighbors of other faiths." Is quite silly, I still felt that I had to say my piece.
There are bigger fish to fry. I might would boycott...but I have never watched the show to begin with!
"Should you boycott The Today Show? Sure, if only because it's stupid, lowest-common-denominator television that enriches no one."
I'll second that comment.
Of course I would expect the Christians to boycott George Carlin. Such is their perogative. Yes, Ms. Gifford is anther vapid pop culture idiot and probably not worth our time, but her comments were offensive nonetheless and I don't think anyone is out of line in letting her know. Speak up, Pagans! I have done so and don't regret it.
I happened to be watching that day when Kathie Lee Giffard made the statement, and it threw me off a bit. Then I realized that Kathie Lee Giffard is always trying to be the funny one on that show. She is often brassy and loud, but that is her 'new' persona for TV. I did not feel that she in anyway was throwing hate speech towards Pagans. And I aggree, I think she was just blabbing off trying to be funny. Many people blab off trying to be funny. I am sure that most of us have on occasion said something and realize later that it was an off color statement. I agree that there is a difference between an accident and an intent in speech. I think hers was an accident - and not that is makes it ok, but that we need to make sure there is a positive way of bringing peoples attention to these issues, much like we have had to do with many groups that all share our world.
There is this thing called "crying wolf". Like Jason and others posting here I do not think that Kathie Lee's flippant remarks qualify as "hate speech". I do believe that in light of her "apology" that she should explain herself but pagans would do well to reserve any "hate speech" accusations for those occasions where what is said actually is said with extreme intolerance and hate. The pagan community will lose credibility with the public if they cry "hate speech" every time someone flippantly, and seemingly even jokingly, describes pagans as "nasty" and "bad".
Well, I disagree with The Wild Hunt because Kathy Lee Gifford is not just "somebody." By being an on-air employee of The Today Show, she is at least acting in the capacity of a quasi-journalist because The Today Show is still nominally a news show. And if you are acting the part of some sort of journalist (even a lousy, two-bit, infotainment journalist) then you need at least minimal (1) objectivity or (2) knowledge or (3) common sense. Kathy Lee failed in all accounts.
It's not crying wolf. It happened, it was dumb, she should apologize for real, keep her stupidity to herself, and try to be a more sensible and better informed employee. --Anna H., Eternal Harvest Tradition of Wicca
I blogged about this the other day, and so far the poll results have been interesting. Of nearly 600 people who have responded, about 3/4 of them were offended by her remarks. Now, personally, I have always thought the woman was an idiot, so I suspect her comments were made out of sheer ignorance.
I don't believe we need her head on a platter, nor do I think we should boycott the Today Show (I don't watch it, but that's because I think it's awful, not because of anyone's comments). I think if nothing else, the show could use this as an opportunity to educate themselves -- and viewers -- about the fact that there really are people out there who practice Pagan spirituality.
I agree with Anna H. While absolutely, we should consider the source here, what we still have is a woman who is a very visible part of the media machine - she is also a fairly vocal one; let's face it, who among us doesn't remember her sweat-shop issues of yore? Or her martyrdom of sorts after Frank's dalliance with a flight attendant? *sigh* The fact is that the woman is in the papers, she's on tv, she's a spoke in the wheel of the news media - and now she's on a fairly well-respected (in some circles) news show which means that she is given exposure. Now, whether she's listened to and/or believed is another thing, the point is that she's part of the problem that we as Pagans face - we have the media feeding the masses as it were all sorts of misinformation about who and what we as Pagans/Wiccans/*insert chosen label here* are according to their perceptions. I know many are fans of "Charmed" and "Practical Magic". I am, too, but at the same time, show me the witch who can do what those on tv and the movies can do....they perpetuate the myth. We're NOT what is shown and it's not right. Kathie Lee made claims that were not true, whether about ancient Pagans or modern then made a running joke of her apology to "the offended ones" complete with kissy-kissy noises. She and indeed her co-anchor Hoda should be ashamed of themselves. This is an excellent time for us as Pagans to stand up for ourselves, to educate and to make an effort to stop the media machine from continuing to perpetuate their myths about who and what we are - and are not - otherwise, how will things change? Should we instead stay silent and let someone like Kathie Lee spew her venom? Or should we stand up and show what we're made of? I believe there's a reason we've come as far as we have in this age we live in. We can also go a whole-lot further if we put some effort out there. I don't know, I'm not going to let a few snarky, "You're all too sensitive" 'witchier-than-thou' types stop me from standing up for what I believe is the right thing to do. If it makes me fluffy, bring on the carrots.
Cerr
cerr.multiply.com
I feel that she was saying it in an uninformed way. Pagan to some is seen as a dirty word. It is a word that makes some think of barbarians and sex fiends, something that should be demonized. Am I offended ? Yeah. Because if you are going to say something 'off the cuff' like 'nasty dirty pagans' in this time and in this country you should apologize. Get your facts straight before you spout off stuff like that. To me it’s like saying something derogatory against blacks and Jews.. What makes it ok to say things against pagans?
If Kathy Lee would have said that about another more mainstream religion or ethnic group, there would be huge repercussions vs what ones there have been.
With great power comes great responsibility. Words are energy and words not only HAVE power, they ARE power. She may not have consciously intended to do harm, but she did so greatly do just that because of her high visibility in the media.
She should have thought out her words and actions much more carefully than she did.
While I can't say that I give a good god damned about what Kathy Lee Gifford thinks of anything at all, I do have to say, that I don't begrudge people their anger at her comments.
If she had said, "Nasty, bad Jews" or "Nasty, Bad Muslims", would everyone be as quick to write it off as a joke?
I think that there is such a thing as taking yourself too seriously, but there is also such a thing as making sure that people know where the line is. And I think that she crossed it.
Did it hurt anyone directly? I doubt it. Does it have the potential to allow a lax attitude towards prejudice against Pagans? It might, and that is what needs to be dealt with - in the US especially.
Of course there are bigger issues facing Pagans these days - but we want the public on our side when dealing with those issues. We don't want the mainstream to think that we'll brush off prejudice as a bad joke.
It's sort of a, 'if we don't care, then no one else will either' kind of thing. Pagans already have problems with being written off as a joke. That is what hurts us when the important problems come down the pike.
How many judges/gov't officials/etc out there believe that Pagans aren't following a 'real' religion? That we are all hippies, and goof offs, and flakes?
--Phae
"If she had said, "Nasty, bad Jews" or "Nasty, Bad Muslims", would everyone be as quick to write it off as a joke?"
If "pagan" only meant the religions of modern Paganism and not...
1. All ancient pre-Christian religions
2. Anyone who isn't a Judeo-Christian
3. An atheist
4. A hedonist
"Muslim" and "Jew" don't have the same elasticity of meaning.
It is obvious from the video that she is speaking generically about "pagans" in the Hollywood sense of primitive barbarians who were around before the Christians.
I don't mind if people are offended, or want to educate her, but I do take issue with calling the incident "hate speech". It isn't, and we should be careful about how we throw that tag around.
Firstly, Kathy Lee is not educated enough to know what a Pagan is. Egyptians was an acceptable term for her while they were also Pagans. Most of the world doesn't understand the term Pagans in the modern context or in the way it is used to label ancient people.
Second, my biggest concern with this blunder of Kathy Lee's is the fact that Pagan children may have been watching - or children that are simply being raised by Pagan parents. As a mother I watch my child struggle with being different and trying to understand why everyone else in her class is Christian. What sort of things might go through her mind if she heard what Kathy Lee said? And even if she wasn't being raised Pagan, want would she think of her Pagan mother?
I think a conversation with a friend sums it up well: she asked me if I thought Kathie Lee had any thought of offending modern day pagans, and my response was to say "wait, you're asking if she THINKS?"
As far as I'm concerned, having kathie Lee trash me is a compliment, but I don't think she was trashing anyone outside of a history class she probably squeaked by with a D in. They should be calling it Ignorant Bimbo Speech instead of Hate Speech.
I agree with you, Jason, and I will not be signing the petition, lest someone lump me together with the pagan version of the Catholic League (you get points for that, and for the "Regis cast-off" comment). I'm a pick-your-battles girl, and this one isn't worth picking. When they told Kathie Lee that there were modern day pagans that were hurt or angry that she was calling them nasty, she probably went (cue valley girl voice) "Omigod, RILLY? Would sponsors buy time on a show about that?"
One more reason I don't have a TV, people . . .
Have an easy day,
Snoozepossum
After hearing the clip, I think she was just being dramatic, maybe even ironic. Blowing it out of proportion doesn't help us become accepted; we wind up looking like another "whiny" minority.
I decided to attack her lack of understanding of the word Pagan. I agree, calling it hate speech is taking it a bit too far. She is obviously in the dark about a great many things and it probably never occurred to her that there might be real Pagans out there. I suspect that in her mind Pagans were savages who never did anything good for anyone. I doubt very much she realized the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Indians (from India), Native Americans, etc were considered Pagans. So I pointed out that the Today Show is complete drivel due to it's complete lack of intelligence. That this was yet another example of their lack of intellectual understanding and that perhaps they should work on educating themselves on history or words before expecting real intelligent people to take them seriously. (Though sadly I caught a couple of grammar errors after I wrote it *pout*.) Regardless, pointing out the quazi intelligence, I think, would have more effect on them then claiming "discrimination". They'll be more likely to apologize for lack of scholarship.
I'll admit I have not taken the time to view the clip in question. I feel that given the source of said comment, there is no need to break out in a sweat about it. KathyLee is after all, KathyLee and that in and of itself means diddly squat!Quazi journalist was a nice way to describe her. Sure she has spent time on actual "news" programs "reporting" fluff. Hardcore journalist with a respected opinion in the business she is not! Both KathyLee and the Morning Show did breach a protcol I would admit. However, I believe it was done in some sort of lame attempt at dramedy. For those who are truley upset by this, I say do what your inner soul dicates. As for me I have this to say as my offering; It was KathyLee Gifford guys... Who givs a flying broomstick? No one listens to her with a grain on seriousness but perhaps kathyLee herself.
We have bigger fish to fry and better battles to fight for real purpose and meaning. I really have to laugh.. KathyLee.... Man that is funny. I had almost forgotten she existed....
I agree that I am sure she meant no harm by it, but in all honosty, if we let her slide by because of her ignorance then we are giving a free pass to all with low knowledge of paganism. Which by the way is what one of our biggest problems are is the christians lack of understanding of the the Pagan religion.
If you as a live television show speaker, wish to make a comment on something whether as a sarcastic poke to some one or as a sarcastic joke to start off the day. Then you should do your homework prior to such an act. That is the responsabilities of as such a person.
I have great patience for people but ones who think they are never wrong and take advantage of a position given to them by the people they serve. And Kathie Lee Gifford serves the nation which we live in, no matter how ignorant she is. And as in such a position as we have placed her she denotes a certain set of responsabilities as I have stated above.
As a Pagan community we should not sit so lightly on such a subject. For though she may lowly rated. Our goal is to help the rest of the world better understand our beliefs, but when one who's voice can be hears cross country no matter how it is taken we cannot afford such a chance as her discrediting our attempts. Because there are several people out there who hang onto every word she says. And I am sure the chances of one of them having a heavy influence quite possibly exists.
And to top it all off she gave quite the non heartfelt apology, to us even though many of us calmly and politely asked for one. For some one who didn't know she offended anyone, only to find out she did, she sure didn't seem to care, and if anything she seemed to find it rude we would ask for such a thing. I personally believe she gives no absolution to the pagan religion.
So yes I signed the petition and I even wrote the station a calm yet stern letter of how I felt about her original statement and her heartless apology. And I still feel you should all do the same.
With the up most respect
Grand Priest Kastrata Almohnd Maeve
Centurian Coven, Guardians of the Goddess.
If you missed it,a shortened version of her mocking apology is up at...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiGaEYAjGnk
Alot of people that were willing to let her remarks slide changed their minds after seeing it.
I don't have time to read through all these comments, so sorry if I repeat another's. Those who "take her side" seem to forget that Kathy Lee is a bible-thumper, who has gospel music records. She tried to make her comment seem less serious, but knowing her background, she intentionally badmouthed Pagans because she's filled with hate for anyone who's not xtian. Yes, I'm making some assumptions here, but so is she by saying people who are non-violent, clean, and love the earth are "nasty."
While a Iagree with what many are saying... that maybe she was being funny, or that she's clueless, or 'brassy'... Would it have flown if she said 'nasty, bad Jews?' or 'nasty bad Muslims?'
I don't think so.
Regardless of her intention to be funny or if she's just clueless, there are other ways to joke around while not using a religious group, a race, a sexuality or whatever to do it. As Pagans of whatever trad. we need to be solid on that fact.
As I said before, though I doubt that it was to be funny, In her position she should have done her research prior to any comments to be made. She knew better but she did it anyways. that is the bottom line, and her blanket apology just showed how much lack of concern for our religion she has. Had it been anyone else she would have been made to do a public specific apology.
Kastrata
Like gollum we should pity her. how did she manage to become a T.V. personality anyway? does she really fill your head that much space where her opinions keep us lying awake at night worried about what Kathy Lee- Gifford thinks of us? I have bigger creatures in my head to do battle with.
Post a Comment
What should we do next...?
How 'bout we burn all the Hammer/Amicus/Argento horror movies, where witches are portrayed as evil! Oh boy, a new 'Burning Times'. Heh!
cheers,
Gene
I figured you'd be blogging about this soon Jason. I tend to agree with your take on it. Here is what I said over on Medusa Coils yesterday -
Did you listen to the video? I just did and, while it is true that Kathy Lee Gifford did say "the nasty bad pagans", I am pretty sure that she was being sarcastic and did not mean it seriously. My interpretation of what she said, based on her light-hearted tone, is that she was sarcastically mocking people who believe that pagans are "nasty" or "bad" and thus was actually expressing some sympathy for, or solidarity with, pagans. I could be mistaken but that is how what she said comes across to me. I did not detect any malice in her tone of voice. The pagans who are making a big issue about this may just end up with some cosmic egg on their face. I really think that that there are better battles to pick and that this petition will not generate good PR for the pagan community.
In light of Kathie Lee's cryptic "apology" I later said this -
Well after seeing that I would say that, more than anything else, an explanation is in order. I long ago learned that an expedient apology arising from demands for an apology is not worth the breath it is spoken with or the paper that it is written on. If Kathie Lee's "blanket apology" is her response to pagan complaints about her labeling of pagans as "nasty" or "bad" it is far from acceptable and, as is often the case, only exacerbates the problem. At this stage Kathie Lee has some explaining to do regarding not only her description of pagans "nasty" and "bad" but also her sorry excuse for an apology.
I signed the petition...lest only the over reactive fluffs become the only voice to speak. I agree that the comment of "Ms. Gifford's hate speech has done harm to American Pagans' ability to live in peace with our neighbors of other faiths." Is quite silly, I still felt that I had to say my piece.
There are bigger fish to fry. I might would boycott...but I have never watched the show to begin with!
"Should you boycott The Today Show? Sure, if only because it's stupid, lowest-common-denominator television that enriches no one."
I'll second that comment.
Of course I would expect the Christians to boycott George Carlin. Such is their perogative. Yes, Ms. Gifford is anther vapid pop culture idiot and probably not worth our time, but her comments were offensive nonetheless and I don't think anyone is out of line in letting her know. Speak up, Pagans! I have done so and don't regret it.
I happened to be watching that day when Kathie Lee Giffard made the statement, and it threw me off a bit. Then I realized that Kathie Lee Giffard is always trying to be the funny one on that show. She is often brassy and loud, but that is her 'new' persona for TV. I did not feel that she in anyway was throwing hate speech towards Pagans. And I aggree, I think she was just blabbing off trying to be funny. Many people blab off trying to be funny. I am sure that most of us have on occasion said something and realize later that it was an off color statement. I agree that there is a difference between an accident and an intent in speech. I think hers was an accident - and not that is makes it ok, but that we need to make sure there is a positive way of bringing peoples attention to these issues, much like we have had to do with many groups that all share our world.
There is this thing called "crying wolf". Like Jason and others posting here I do not think that Kathie Lee's flippant remarks qualify as "hate speech". I do believe that in light of her "apology" that she should explain herself but pagans would do well to reserve any "hate speech" accusations for those occasions where what is said actually is said with extreme intolerance and hate. The pagan community will lose credibility with the public if they cry "hate speech" every time someone flippantly, and seemingly even jokingly, describes pagans as "nasty" and "bad".
Well, I disagree with The Wild Hunt because Kathy Lee Gifford is not just "somebody." By being an on-air employee of The Today Show, she is at least acting in the capacity of a quasi-journalist because The Today Show is still nominally a news show. And if you are acting the part of some sort of journalist (even a lousy, two-bit, infotainment journalist) then you need at least minimal (1) objectivity or (2) knowledge or (3) common sense. Kathy Lee failed in all accounts.
It's not crying wolf. It happened, it was dumb, she should apologize for real, keep her stupidity to herself, and try to be a more sensible and better informed employee. --Anna H., Eternal Harvest Tradition of Wicca
I blogged about this the other day, and so far the poll results have been interesting. Of nearly 600 people who have responded, about 3/4 of them were offended by her remarks. Now, personally, I have always thought the woman was an idiot, so I suspect her comments were made out of sheer ignorance.
I don't believe we need her head on a platter, nor do I think we should boycott the Today Show (I don't watch it, but that's because I think it's awful, not because of anyone's comments). I think if nothing else, the show could use this as an opportunity to educate themselves -- and viewers -- about the fact that there really are people out there who practice Pagan spirituality.
I agree with Anna H. While absolutely, we should consider the source here, what we still have is a woman who is a very visible part of the media machine - she is also a fairly vocal one; let's face it, who among us doesn't remember her sweat-shop issues of yore? Or her martyrdom of sorts after Frank's dalliance with a flight attendant? *sigh* The fact is that the woman is in the papers, she's on tv, she's a spoke in the wheel of the news media - and now she's on a fairly well-respected (in some circles) news show which means that she is given exposure. Now, whether she's listened to and/or believed is another thing, the point is that she's part of the problem that we as Pagans face - we have the media feeding the masses as it were all sorts of misinformation about who and what we as Pagans/Wiccans/*insert chosen label here* are according to their perceptions. I know many are fans of "Charmed" and "Practical Magic". I am, too, but at the same time, show me the witch who can do what those on tv and the movies can do....they perpetuate the myth. We're NOT what is shown and it's not right. Kathie Lee made claims that were not true, whether about ancient Pagans or modern then made a running joke of her apology to "the offended ones" complete with kissy-kissy noises. She and indeed her co-anchor Hoda should be ashamed of themselves. This is an excellent time for us as Pagans to stand up for ourselves, to educate and to make an effort to stop the media machine from continuing to perpetuate their myths about who and what we are - and are not - otherwise, how will things change? Should we instead stay silent and let someone like Kathie Lee spew her venom? Or should we stand up and show what we're made of? I believe there's a reason we've come as far as we have in this age we live in. We can also go a whole-lot further if we put some effort out there. I don't know, I'm not going to let a few snarky, "You're all too sensitive" 'witchier-than-thou' types stop me from standing up for what I believe is the right thing to do. If it makes me fluffy, bring on the carrots.
Cerr
cerr.multiply.com
I feel that she was saying it in an uninformed way. Pagan to some is seen as a dirty word. It is a word that makes some think of barbarians and sex fiends, something that should be demonized. Am I offended ? Yeah. Because if you are going to say something 'off the cuff' like 'nasty dirty pagans' in this time and in this country you should apologize. Get your facts straight before you spout off stuff like that. To me it’s like saying something derogatory against blacks and Jews.. What makes it ok to say things against pagans?
If Kathy Lee would have said that about another more mainstream religion or ethnic group, there would be huge repercussions vs what ones there have been.
With great power comes great responsibility. Words are energy and words not only HAVE power, they ARE power. She may not have consciously intended to do harm, but she did so greatly do just that because of her high visibility in the media.
She should have thought out her words and actions much more carefully than she did.
While I can't say that I give a good god damned about what Kathy Lee Gifford thinks of anything at all, I do have to say, that I don't begrudge people their anger at her comments.
If she had said, "Nasty, bad Jews" or "Nasty, Bad Muslims", would everyone be as quick to write it off as a joke?
I think that there is such a thing as taking yourself too seriously, but there is also such a thing as making sure that people know where the line is. And I think that she crossed it.
Did it hurt anyone directly? I doubt it. Does it have the potential to allow a lax attitude towards prejudice against Pagans? It might, and that is what needs to be dealt with - in the US especially.
Of course there are bigger issues facing Pagans these days - but we want the public on our side when dealing with those issues. We don't want the mainstream to think that we'll brush off prejudice as a bad joke.
It's sort of a, 'if we don't care, then no one else will either' kind of thing. Pagans already have problems with being written off as a joke. That is what hurts us when the important problems come down the pike.
How many judges/gov't officials/etc out there believe that Pagans aren't following a 'real' religion? That we are all hippies, and goof offs, and flakes?
--Phae
"If she had said, "Nasty, bad Jews" or "Nasty, Bad Muslims", would everyone be as quick to write it off as a joke?"
If "pagan" only meant the religions of modern Paganism and not...
1. All ancient pre-Christian religions
2. Anyone who isn't a Judeo-Christian
3. An atheist
4. A hedonist
"Muslim" and "Jew" don't have the same elasticity of meaning.
It is obvious from the video that she is speaking generically about "pagans" in the Hollywood sense of primitive barbarians who were around before the Christians.
I don't mind if people are offended, or want to educate her, but I do take issue with calling the incident "hate speech". It isn't, and we should be careful about how we throw that tag around.
Firstly, Kathy Lee is not educated enough to know what a Pagan is. Egyptians was an acceptable term for her while they were also Pagans. Most of the world doesn't understand the term Pagans in the modern context or in the way it is used to label ancient people.
Second, my biggest concern with this blunder of Kathy Lee's is the fact that Pagan children may have been watching - or children that are simply being raised by Pagan parents. As a mother I watch my child struggle with being different and trying to understand why everyone else in her class is Christian. What sort of things might go through her mind if she heard what Kathy Lee said? And even if she wasn't being raised Pagan, want would she think of her Pagan mother?
I think a conversation with a friend sums it up well: she asked me if I thought Kathie Lee had any thought of offending modern day pagans, and my response was to say "wait, you're asking if she THINKS?"
As far as I'm concerned, having kathie Lee trash me is a compliment, but I don't think she was trashing anyone outside of a history class she probably squeaked by with a D in. They should be calling it Ignorant Bimbo Speech instead of Hate Speech.
I agree with you, Jason, and I will not be signing the petition, lest someone lump me together with the pagan version of the Catholic League (you get points for that, and for the "Regis cast-off" comment). I'm a pick-your-battles girl, and this one isn't worth picking. When they told Kathie Lee that there were modern day pagans that were hurt or angry that she was calling them nasty, she probably went (cue valley girl voice) "Omigod, RILLY? Would sponsors buy time on a show about that?"
One more reason I don't have a TV, people . . .
Have an easy day,
Snoozepossum
After hearing the clip, I think she was just being dramatic, maybe even ironic. Blowing it out of proportion doesn't help us become accepted; we wind up looking like another "whiny" minority.
I decided to attack her lack of understanding of the word Pagan. I agree, calling it hate speech is taking it a bit too far. She is obviously in the dark about a great many things and it probably never occurred to her that there might be real Pagans out there. I suspect that in her mind Pagans were savages who never did anything good for anyone. I doubt very much she realized the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Indians (from India), Native Americans, etc were considered Pagans. So I pointed out that the Today Show is complete drivel due to it's complete lack of intelligence. That this was yet another example of their lack of intellectual understanding and that perhaps they should work on educating themselves on history or words before expecting real intelligent people to take them seriously. (Though sadly I caught a couple of grammar errors after I wrote it *pout*.) Regardless, pointing out the quazi intelligence, I think, would have more effect on them then claiming "discrimination". They'll be more likely to apologize for lack of scholarship.
I'll admit I have not taken the time to view the clip in question. I feel that given the source of said comment, there is no need to break out in a sweat about it. KathyLee is after all, KathyLee and that in and of itself means diddly squat!Quazi journalist was a nice way to describe her. Sure she has spent time on actual "news" programs "reporting" fluff. Hardcore journalist with a respected opinion in the business she is not! Both KathyLee and the Morning Show did breach a protcol I would admit. However, I believe it was done in some sort of lame attempt at dramedy. For those who are truley upset by this, I say do what your inner soul dicates. As for me I have this to say as my offering; It was KathyLee Gifford guys... Who givs a flying broomstick? No one listens to her with a grain on seriousness but perhaps kathyLee herself.
We have bigger fish to fry and better battles to fight for real purpose and meaning. I really have to laugh.. KathyLee.... Man that is funny. I had almost forgotten she existed....
I agree that I am sure she meant no harm by it, but in all honosty, if we let her slide by because of her ignorance then we are giving a free pass to all with low knowledge of paganism. Which by the way is what one of our biggest problems are is the christians lack of understanding of the the Pagan religion.
If you as a live television show speaker, wish to make a comment on something whether as a sarcastic poke to some one or as a sarcastic joke to start off the day. Then you should do your homework prior to such an act. That is the responsabilities of as such a person.
I have great patience for people but ones who think they are never wrong and take advantage of a position given to them by the people they serve. And Kathie Lee Gifford serves the nation which we live in, no matter how ignorant she is. And as in such a position as we have placed her she denotes a certain set of responsabilities as I have stated above.
As a Pagan community we should not sit so lightly on such a subject. For though she may lowly rated. Our goal is to help the rest of the world better understand our beliefs, but when one who's voice can be hears cross country no matter how it is taken we cannot afford such a chance as her discrediting our attempts. Because there are several people out there who hang onto every word she says. And I am sure the chances of one of them having a heavy influence quite possibly exists.
And to top it all off she gave quite the non heartfelt apology, to us even though many of us calmly and politely asked for one. For some one who didn't know she offended anyone, only to find out she did, she sure didn't seem to care, and if anything she seemed to find it rude we would ask for such a thing. I personally believe she gives no absolution to the pagan religion.
So yes I signed the petition and I even wrote the station a calm yet stern letter of how I felt about her original statement and her heartless apology. And I still feel you should all do the same.
With the up most respect
Grand Priest Kastrata Almohnd Maeve
Centurian Coven, Guardians of the Goddess.
If you missed it,a shortened version of her mocking apology is up at...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiGaEYAjGnk
Alot of people that were willing to let her remarks slide changed their minds after seeing it.
I don't have time to read through all these comments, so sorry if I repeat another's. Those who "take her side" seem to forget that Kathy Lee is a bible-thumper, who has gospel music records. She tried to make her comment seem less serious, but knowing her background, she intentionally badmouthed Pagans because she's filled with hate for anyone who's not xtian. Yes, I'm making some assumptions here, but so is she by saying people who are non-violent, clean, and love the earth are "nasty."
While a Iagree with what many are saying... that maybe she was being funny, or that she's clueless, or 'brassy'... Would it have flown if she said 'nasty, bad Jews?' or 'nasty bad Muslims?'
I don't think so.
Regardless of her intention to be funny or if she's just clueless, there are other ways to joke around while not using a religious group, a race, a sexuality or whatever to do it. As Pagans of whatever trad. we need to be solid on that fact.
As I said before, though I doubt that it was to be funny, In her position she should have done her research prior to any comments to be made. She knew better but she did it anyways. that is the bottom line, and her blanket apology just showed how much lack of concern for our religion she has. Had it been anyone else she would have been made to do a public specific apology.
Kastrata
Like gollum we should pity her. how did she manage to become a T.V. personality anyway? does she really fill your head that much space where her opinions keep us lying awake at night worried about what Kathy Lee- Gifford thinks of us? I have bigger creatures in my head to do battle with.
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