6.12.2008
Pagan Woman Kicked Out of Christian Homeless Shelter
Idaho CBS affiliate KIDK reports on a woman who claims she and her 17-month-old son were booted from a non-denominational Christian half-way house when she refused to discard her Pagan jewelry and (witch-themed) fantasy novels.
Rachel "Raven" Litzau
"A young lady seeking help from a faith-based temporary housing program in Idaho Falls is on the streets tonight, looking for shelter ... She tells me the organization is discriminating against her because of her beliefs. Litzau came to the Ruth House two weeks ago with her 17-month-old son. She was trying to get away from her abusive husband and get back on her feet. The Ruth House is a non-denominational christian housing center. They say they will accept anyone, but Litzau is pagan. And she tells me that quickly became a problem. "It was along the lines of, 'Oh, well we've had a lot of complaints about this,' and then suddenly it was like she saw my ring for the first time, and said, 'Oh, and that's got to go that's satanic and your jewelry has to go,' and I said, 'I'm sorry I can't do that. It was really insulting because there's a big difference between satanism and paganism," says Litzau ... When Litzau refused to discard her jewelry and books, she was asked to leave."
Since all the other local homeless shelters are at capacity, Litzau will most likely have to sleep on the street tonight. But when the quality of mercy is strained by intolerance, unfavorable press coverage might just remind them of their "Christian" duty.
"I couldn't talk to the director of the Ruth House on camera, but did reach him over the phone. Robert Gulden tells me he's not even sure Litzau violated any of the organization's rules. They don't have any standards on jewelry and the only rules on literature state that the ladies can't read books with descriptive words or pornographic pictures. Gulden did mention Litzau was struggling to get along with the nine other girls in the room, and that probably influenced his staff's decision ... Before I talked to Gulden, he hadn't even heard of the issue. He tells me he should have been notified and that his staff didn't follow proper protocol. That's why Gulden is asking Litzau to come meet with him personally and try to work things out."
However it happens, let's hope that Ms. Litzau finds a bed for her and her child tonight, and succeeds in escaping the abusive relationship she ran from. Perhaps the Pagan community in Idaho can look into this and find a more accepting environment for this young mother? Ruth House may take her back in tonight, but what will happen when the camera's glare turns to the next story?
Labels: Christianity, homeless, Idaho, mercy, Paganism, Rachel "Raven" Litzau
Comments:
That's disgusting. If these Christ followers bothered to read their own Bible, they'd see their leader welcomed women and children of all walks of life into his group and never turned them away, even the ones who were not of his own faith (Samaritan woman story)
I agree that it's disgusting and hypocrite. If they lived like Jesus, they wouldn't turn away someone of another way of life who seeks help.
On the other hand, as long as it's not government funded, I believe they have the legal right to refuse anyone they want as a private shelter. Legal and moral are two different things however.
Paganism has a lot about hospitality and consideration for a person's hosts and other guests.
Not sure at all from this story if the blame goes one-sided.
I'd certainly want the shelter to examine whether or not its living up to its own standards in this case. However, it's their charity, and they can distribute it as they see fit as long as they follow the laws of the land.
However, what made me laugh is probably a reporter error, but you've got to love a policy that states that "...the ladies can't read books with descriptive words..." No, only the men-folk are morally strong enough to withstand the reading of descriptive words: no newspapers or Bibles for you!
I hope one day the Pagan/Wiccan community has enough money and support to run homeless shelters that would not discriminate against any religious background.
"Nine other GIRLS in the ROOM? What's going on here, anyway? They didn't say WOMEN, and why are nine females (plus their children?) sharing ONE room?
hmmmmmm
Doesn't exactly sound like "shelter" to me; more like an indoctrination center............
I'm with enlightened77 on this one - I hope that one day Pagans have enough clout to run our own homeless shelter. Maybe we could team up with the UUs.
I did hear a sad story from a Big Issue vendor in Bristol, UK (the Big Issue is a magazine sold by homeless people which helps them get back on their feet) - a Pagan lady gave her a room, and it was all going really well, and then the local council told the homeless lady that she was no longer on the council housing waiting list because as far as they were concerned she was housed (even though it was only a temporary arrangement). So bureaucracy often prevents us from being charitable on our own initiative.
From what I have seen, Christian-run non-profits do have morality clauses to their services. Part of Bush's faith-based initiatives plan. Send government monies to Christian groups and let them do the services. Private contracting at it's best, or it's worst.
However, what gets me is that this mother would rather have her 7 year old sleep in the streets than take off some jewelry and be discrete with her paganism. At some point, everyone does what they need to get by. We all have to make moral choices at times, and what is so highly ethical in keeping her child homeless? Her responsibility is her child. It doesn't mean staying with someone abusive, but if services come with the price tag of religious discretion, maybe she needs to think of her child first.
There used to be a use of the word "Christian" that was an adjective for "charitable". I guess those folks never heard the word used that way.
I hope they're not getting any “State and locally-administered Federal funding”! (See http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/grants-catalog-index.html) Because if they are, they should have to pay it back.
It's unfortunate but there are a lot of homeless shelters that like to shove religion down your throat. Many years back my family feel on some really hard times, we had to use the shelters.
One kicked us out, and among many of the reasons was, we did not attend church. Most of their reasons were unfounded in my opinion.
The next one we went to was the opposite. First off it was a private shelter, not affiliated with a a church or a government agency. They worked with you to change your life around, not like that rest that treated had to find some fault with you. As for religion, the second shelter did have a preacher that came by, but no one was forced to go to the sermons.
We could wear our jewerly and other things that had pagan symbols on it. They were more concerned with how we got a long with the other people in the shelter and if we were doing our chores.
I have often wondered where are the pagan shelters, the pagan run soup kitchens, the pagan humanitarian organizations? That is one area that the pagan community should really strengthen.
"However, what gets me is that this mother would rather have her 7 year old sleep in the streets than take off some jewelry and be discrete with her paganism."
Ah, how we love to judge one another and divide, especially over "but what about the children?!" No one here knows that she was given the choice to resind her decision. What if it was the case that she said she could not because it was important to her and a symbol of faith that she desperately needed now in a very hard time and was told she had to leave - and that was that. Not given a choice, but told.
And if she did have a choice, there is a Christian saying I like a lot,
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone." No one wins the perfect parenting game and your condemnation helps nothing. This woman was escaping a life of hell and abuse and had no where to go. Her life was in frieghtening crisis. If she clung to something important to her, tried to defend some small part of what is hers in a time when she feels she is losing everything - love, home, a way to feed herself and her child - it may have been the wrong decision, but its a human trait to make some really poor decisions when under severe emotional and physical distress. Really, who is anyone to judge and why waste the time? Better to spend such time on compassion or making a better world for such mothers and children.
It would be nice to find out who the heck turtlemoon135 is. Seriously, if he/she had been forced to take off thier cross, im sure they would whine religious discrimination (yes i smell christian fundies a mile a way) Anyways, I ve asked before, and ill ask agian, are you ready to war with the christians? I chose my side, and I remeber I almost had to go to a homeless shelter, you know what i did instead? I slept in my car. I dont like the way society is run , and you bet your butt that me and my husband are working to change it, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, but anything is better than a Pagan being run out of a homeless shelter because she wasnt christian like the rest of society.
A person shouldnt have to give up thier religion just to please others, and so what that she has a child, thats her child, and her buisness only. Thats another problem i have with society, once you have a child everyone else tells you how to raise it, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS. If this article is any indication, christians are disgusting, vile, intolerant people, and if the shoe were on the other foot, the christian would yell persecution, yet its ok because its a Pagan. No, the witchtrials was not ok, and neither was the holocaust. christianity's days are almost over.
I think it was a bit carless of her to go public with this story. If she is running from an abusive relationship this was not a smart move. choose your battles.
It seems unconscionable to me that a homeless shelter, Christian or otherwise, would turn out a person because of their faith... or the shelter's ignorance of it. The shelter should be wallowing in shame about now.
That being said, Elnigma has a valid point as well. There is an old (pagan) saying: "When in another's home, worship [or at least respect] their Gods."
Certainly if the home is known as or advertised as a Christian home then it would be good manners to respect the people that are sheltering you for FREE by being discreet. How else could one thank them.
And, certainly one does need to be mature and think of one's child first instead of choosing to rebel against authority or those who provide shelter FREE of charge.
If this was a Muslim home, there would be no tolerance for pagan, Christian, or Jewish symbols. In fact, one would not be able to pray out loud in public or use any language to try to convert.
I get very tired of hearing Christians bashed because someone wants to prove a point.
Critics of these types of shelters IMHO, should examine their motives, maturity and priorities.
She doesn't care that she went public because she wasn't in an abusive relationship. She left her husband and the baby; then had the baby for a "visit" and ran off with him. His father has no clue where he is or how he is. The baby was living in a warm loving home with his own bed, clothes and food. He had a family, until his "mother" stole him away from it. Don't feel sorry for her. Help the father get his son back. She has caused havoc wherever she runs and she runs all the time. How do I know? She lived with me for awhile. I put up with her BS until she couldn't handle her mess anymore and then she left.
"She doesn't care that she went public because she wasn't in an abusive relationship. She left her husband and the baby; then had the baby for a "visit" and ran off with him. His father has no clue where he is or how he is. The baby was living in a warm loving home with his own bed, clothes and food. He had a family, until his "mother" stole him away from it. Don't feel sorry for her. Help the father get his son back. She has caused havoc wherever she runs and she runs all the time. How do I know? She lived with me for awhile. I put up with her BS until she couldn't handle her mess anymore and then she left."
If what this reads is true (and I am not saying it isn't mind you) then it seems to me that law officials would have been called in. Where were they during this whole ordeal? Even more important,how come you didn't assist the father in getting his son back when you obviously had not only the opportunity but also this knowledge? Do I hear accessory to,during and after the fact? I still refere back to the whole message of this artical, Where has humanity gone? Where has compassion gone? I can't help but believe that if one is steadfastly committed to their beliefs then they should not be so easily swayed or threatened by someone elses conflicting beliefs.
The whole point to this artical is outright descrimination! Some of the responses on this artical seem to point out that her jewelry should have been removed because when in Rome do as the Romans do but does that have to mean you have to compromise your own beliefs? I just had my PAGAN(Handfasting)Wedding where I had guests of various religious backgrounds who attended and I never once thought to tell them to remove their religious jewelry, it is not my place to force anyone into a belief not of their own choosing! I think that people have become to petty and juvinile in their thinking proccess any more and the all sides of this story need a wake up call to the cold hard facts that everyone has rights. The real problem here is the fact that neither side really thought through the situations at hand and both sides did not think through the issues and use "simple common sence" or weigh out the pros and cons of the choices they made.
For those who have stood by me, I appreciate it. As for the one who claims he had a "family", she used to be my best friend, until she decided she wanted to try to take my child from me, and got together with my ex to play mind-games with me.
I'm doing much better and have found shelter. I'm in awe of how many people have chosen to support my stance, and would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Blessed be.
Kowe,
Good for you, Dont back down stand your ground protecting YOUR son from the crazy people that you were with. I was there for you then an Im still here for you. I got your back NO MATTER WHAT!!!
Kowe I have to admire your steadfastness and strength in times of adversity. Props to you. May the goddess stand by you always and bless you beyond your dreams. In my previous post I chose not to side really with anyone but know this I understand your dilema as I was in your shoes not so long ago myself though I didn't need to hide my religious beliefs to appease anyone. There is not one person here who could know the whole story from start to finish and therefore not one person could say for sure what they themselves would have done in your cercumastance for sure. I do believe however that the powers that be have and will continue to look out for you and your son. We all have tests that we must make decisions about. Your dedication to your beliefs should be an example to all, and when we are faced with our own tests I would hope that we would all cling to our own beliefs and not be swayed or crumble.
With that being said, I cannot say that you made the right desision for anyone else but for yourself and your son as it is evident that the Goddess has smiled upon your and your choices you made and has provided for you both in the end. As for everyone else here this story reached other websites such as the following one where some eye opening replys have been made to this story. http://www.topix.net/religion/pagan-wiccan/2008/06/pagan-woman-kicked-out-of-christian-homeless-shelter/p5#lastPost
First of all, I just found this link, so I am not the one that posted before, RACHEL. There were many witnesses to you.
Second, I didn't get together with your ex to steal your child and play mind games. We are not together, we live in the same house.
Third, I saw the way you treated your child, yelling and screaming at him to "shut the F*ck up" is not being a good mother.
Fourth, For the person that stated that he should get the police involved... His father did.
Fifth, This mother, walked out on her son and husband for not 1 man, but 2. And bolted out of state instead of standing on her own, after her second boyfriend dumped her for lying among things, and doing as she stated she would which was "To never keep her son from his father".
Sixth, his father is the most pacifist person I have ever met, I honestly don't see how anyone could ever believe he would hurt anyone, let alone two people he loves.
Seventh, he always let her see their son and told him everything she ever asked of him. Even when she threatened to leave state.
Eighth, she is the one that stated herself to several people that she was a bad mom and that her husband should have custody of their son, that she just wanted visitation. And when she changed her mind and wanted equal custody, he was fine with it.
Squeak,
I was there I know the situation and YOU are WRONG. She left to protect herself and HER son from the abusive situation that was going on. Raven and HER son are doing alot better than they were. HER son is thriving now that he is away from all the abusive people that were around him. So you shut the F?CK UP.
Peaches
So peaches,
You were there the entire time, and you KNOW the situation? Did you see this alleged abuse going on? Why is it that the Father had custody for so long IF he was abusive? Why was it that the little one finally started gaining weight when he was living with his father? Why was it that He stopped screaming all through the night when he was with his father?
You're saying that she left to protect her self when she hadn't even been living with the accused for almost four months, much rather she had been living with her lover, and THEIR son had been living with his father not to mention the mother willingly giving the father verbal custody. Which she had visitation any time she wished.
You seem like a very good friend, I could only hope to have someone step up for me like you have for Kowe but, I'm sorry, you have not been around for the whole situation, because I honestly have not either. I have been around both parties though, I spent two months with Kowe and Four months with the father.
I saw whats going on, saw the messages she sent him and I'm seeing the anguish he is going through right now.
You are a good friend, you must be to stand beside someone and help someone as much as it seems you have but have you ever taken a pause to think that there may be another side to the story?
10You know what I know what I need to know. I did what I had to do to take care of my friend, If I had to do it again I would. NO MATTER WHAT.
Peaches,
Yes, I know what you know and what you need to know and I would absolutely love to talk to you one day person to person. I have to say that I'm truly intrigued by you. My E-mail is Luvgolds88@yahoo.com Please. contact me.
Never going to happen, I only let people that I know an trust around me. Im only here to protect an stand up for my friend.
Peaches
I don't want to be around you, dear. I'm the same way in only wanting people I actually trust around me. So you're here to protect Kowe from what? not much can attack you over the computer usually. You don't have to E-mail me if you choose not too I was just saying that I wanted to talk to you in something other than a comment spot where we are talking about things not involving the subject of the forum. I would really like to hear both sides of the story and I figured I could talk to you and hear the side that I haven't gotten to hear.
ok... to all of those who have helped my brother, thank you, and that's not from him... that's from me.
Kowe,
i trusted you. but i now see that everyone was right. you are a liar, and a user.
i hope that one day you come to your senses and realize that what you have done is wrong.
but for now i will just stop writing, but i have so much more to say to you.
For everyone that has had to listen to this, I hope that you, at the very least, realize that there are many sides to a story.
For Peaches, I was there. I've known both of them since before they were married. I talked to Rachel almost every day of my life for more than 3 years, up until she started treating me like garbage just because her boyfriend didn't like me, about 4 months ago. So you can not tell me that I was not there.
Also, you did not have to listen to her tell people that she wished that she had never had him so that she would be free to party whenever she wanted. Or watch her switch from loving her husband to hating him all because some other guy looked her way. And have to watch her outright lie to her husband when she was dating people even before asking for separation or divorce.
She was not near her husband from the date she moved to Oklahoma, January 22, till she jumped state on May 19, unless there were witnesses around. All that were present can attest that there was no abuse.
The claims of abuse were never supported, and the only injury I had heard of during the entire marriage was when SHE broke an ashtray by slamming it into a table because she was going to throw it at her husband and changed her mind. The only time I ever heard of him putting a hand out in any way during their arguments was to hold her wrist to keep HER from hitting HIM.
She could have made things work down here. There are apartments, there are jobs, and according to you, she had friends to support her here.
She swore everyday that she would never deny her son his father, and that she would never deny her husband his son. She swore her word was her honor, and that she would never break her word. She broke her own word; she outright denies her husband any kind of contact with their son. She disappeared with their son after stating to her husband that he would be home by bedtime and that he should believe her as her word should be good enough.
She got dumped and kicked out by her boyfriend for lying and trying to destroy another friend’s life. All because she was jealous of the girl and knew that her boyfriend had a crush on the girl.
I've lived with her twice in my life, she never wanted to clean or support her way in the home. I've seen her lose her places to live due to her attitude and her unwillingness to keep to house rules, even when those rules were to clean up after herself. One of the main reasons the couple lost out on the shelter they lived in before moving down to Oklahoma was that they didn’t keep that clean. The fact that her husband cleans up after himself and after their son when he was living here, helps to attest to the fact that it was a good portion her own fault for the non-cleanliness there as well.
She got upset and claimed I was dating her husband all because people here realized that she was lying and manipulative and didn’t outright believe her when she suddenly started claiming several claims of abuse without being able to keep her stories straight. Especially since the claims only started after she wanted to go out with a man that didn’t want to date a married woman. She was upset that people got to know her husband and realized who he was as a person and saw through her stories the more they got to know him.
So many people involved never got the full story. So many people never bothered to think that if she lied about everything else, that she could be lying about her husband and the shelter. Now the shelter and her husband’s names have been dragged through the dirt, all because people don’t bother to get all the sides of a story.
You know what I WAS there for her you just dont remember me. I was there when she left I know the entire story, Im still standing by her no matter what.
I do remember you, I also remember that you did not come into the picture until after the father had moved to Oklahoma, and that the only time you were at my home was the day you helped her to leave.
You did not get the entire story because you NEVER spoke to the father, myself, or anyone else except Rachel.
I do know who you are, your real name and what you look like. I have known since before the day you were here.
You also know me, and the father, and yet you have never spoken to either of us to get other sides to the story.
I know what I need to know. I did what I had to do to help out a friend. NO I dont want to know you or the "father"
You need to learn how to read every word. I did not say that I, nor the father for that matter, wanted to be your friend Peaches.
I stated that I do know who you are and that you knew who each of us was. Plain and simple.
I think that you are being very closed minded about the whole thing to only be listening to one side of the story.
And for that fact alone would be reason enough for not being your friend. That you can not think past the one side to realize there is so much more going on here.
You keep stating that you did what you "had to" for a friend. And that you "know what you need to know". But everything you know is from only one side of the story, so fact is, you don't know everything about what is going on.
Squeak,
He may be my brother, and the baby may be nephew, and they and Rachel have lived with me, but I realize that no one loves them quiet like you do, and I am very thankful for that. However, that has nothing to do with this blog, so i will just stop.
As for Peaches,
You have NOT been there the entire time. You do not know both sides of the story. I haven't been there the entire time either, i have not been there for even most of the time, but I have at least tried to hear both sides of the story, unlike you. If you are going to make an argument, at least know all the facts so that you have a GOOD argument. That wasn't a command, simply a request.
Kowe,
You have done some awful things in your life, and most have forgiven you or at least tried to. You have always had friends as well. But i am begging you to please just allow the father contact with his son. Please!
I garuntee that if you keep doing what you are doing, you will eventually have no where to go.
Again, thank you to all who have helped my brother.
She was not asked to give up her religion. This is no different than a Christian student being told they cannot pray over the PA system at a public school.
A Christian center should not be forced to allow persons in who are there to promote rhetoric about something other than Christianity. Try preaching that homosexuality is wrong at a gay center and see what happens. I don't think they will be loving or tolerant about it either.
Christians who are homeless should have the right to go to shelters which espouse and encourage their values and will protect them from other influences. I do hope that Wiccan/Pagan groups will step up to the plate and offer services. Atheists and agnostics too.
I have a hard enough time being able to find a shelter which does not discriminate against me based on gender. I am a transsexual, and I have been homeless. I tried to get into a women's shelter, and they said that the information on my ID didn't match who I was and they could not let me in. Then I went to the men's, and they told me to go back to the ladies. So, once like that I had to sleep on the streets. Two other times, I was forced to stay with the men, despite that being very degrading to me. They could not understand I am a woman with a birth defect, and the first night, I had to listen to men sitting up all night talking about wanting to kill f***ots. I am not one of those, so I was not offended by their obvious immaturity, but I was afraid they might be mistaking me for one of the people they hate.
I don't know entirely the WHOLE thing, but I was around for most of it...
To Raven, WTF where you thinking just taking off w/ Goober like that?? Knowing you had NO place to go and risking the chance that not just you, but him as well would have to sleep on streets he is 7-months old and it doesn't matter where you are it is HOT as hell in most states to hot for that baby to not have an ACed place to be. How are you feeding him, clothing him, Rave how are you even taking care of him right now??
To everyone that has been reading this... Raven DID leave her husband to come to Oklahoma she got a job where I was working and met one of my friends and decided to get in a relationship with them, she spread some rumors about another friend out of jealousy and almost cost her everything INCLUDING her son. Therefor the boy dumped her shortly after is when she took off.
I will be honest though I have been going through a ruff time of my own and been outta town staying with friends so I wasn't ALWAYS around, but I did make it point to atlest visit everyone.
I got to know the husband being accused and I will tell you he would never hurt anyone. How do I know because I have seen him in situations that I myself would've gone off the handle and hurt someone as to where he did nothing to harm anyone all he wanted to do was talk it out and work things out.
I have heard Raven say she wished she didnt have her son because she thought she wasn't a good mother , BUT I also talked to her later on and she admitted that she was scared and that she wanted to be a good mom she was just scared she wouldn't be and I told her she has to trust herself and have faith in herself and that I would help her with whatever she needed help with if I could.
I myself am not a mother, but I am a aunt to three beutiful little girls and so you learn things about kids.
Peaches, I don't know who you think you are and I am sure even though I use to work with you I don't know you... What you did was WRONG you helped take a baby out of a home where he was loved and cared for.
How do I know I was around I use to come over and hang out at the house and spend time with him.
There wasn't any abuse I know that now, but I was someone who at first beleived the things that was said about the accused, but I took the time to get to know him and to pay attenchen to detail and realize that it wasn't true.
Here is the messed up thing Rave I never told you that I knew you where lying about so many things because I do care for you and I do care about our friendship and I was affraid that you would end out friendship. You are not a bad person as some people think you are I think you are just confussed and scared and you feel like you are all alone and why you took me off your myspace I don't know either if it is because I am still friends w/ squeaks and others that hurts me a lot.
To squeaks you know I love you as a friend too and as a sister like I do Rave as well, but right now the most important thing is getting rave back to oklahoma and getting the baby to a save place and letting his father see him.
All that has ever come out of this whole mess is fighting not physical either mental and words and now it has cost a loving father his child.
This father never wanted the marriage to end as far as I know.
But all of that doesnt matter now what matter RIGHT NOW is the safety of RAVE and Goober.
So everyone STOP THE FIGHTING AND BULL I AM NOT TAKING SIDES I NEVER HAVE AND I NEVER WILL!
It may seem like I am taking sides when I am not I am just tryin to clear the names that have been slandered, by all this fighting.
As said befor though the ONLY thing that matters right now is the safty of MY FRIEND RAVE AND HER CHILD.
Raven I love you and I don't know what is going on w/ you right now, but you need to contact me somehow and let me know you are okay and that goob is okay.
STOP THE FIGHTING!!!! THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT HERE!!
Lee,
I know where Raven and her son are at. They are safe an NOT on the streets. They are NOT coming back to Oklahoma.
Peaches
Peaches,
No offence, but you need stay out of this. You did your part and honestly unless Rave is w/ you I don't care what you have to say!
Raven you need to come home!!!!
Lee,
Im not going to stay out of this. Raven is my friend and Im going to protect her NO MATTER WHAT!!!! I know where they are an they are safe, leave them ALONE.
Peaches
Peaches,
I WILL NOT LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!
UNLIKE YOU I AM A TRUE FRIEND INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HELP HER RUN FROM A PROBLEM MAYBE YOU SHOULD'VE JUST HELPED HER GET THROUGH IT!!!!
I AM NOT OUT TO GET RAVEN NO ONE IS NOT EVEN SQUEAKS IS, BUT RAVEN LIED ABOUT THINGS THAT SHE NEEDS TO COME CLEAN ABOUT AND FACE THE FACTS RUNNING AWAY ISN'T GOING TO FIX ANYTHING!!!!
A TRUE FRIEND WOULD LOOK FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF GOOBER!!!!
Raven you need to come home and get all this resolved and let Gab see his Father it is the right thing to do. When he was with his Dad his dad never told you that you couldn't see him.
You need to come home and stay with a real friend that will protect you, but not let you keep making the wrong choices.
I am not on a side in the except Goob's
That's disgusting. If these Christ followers bothered to read their own Bible, they'd see their leader welcomed women and children of all walks of life into his group and never turned them away, even the ones who were not of his own faith (Samaritan woman story)
I agree that it's disgusting and hypocrite. If they lived like Jesus, they wouldn't turn away someone of another way of life who seeks help.
On the other hand, as long as it's not government funded, I believe they have the legal right to refuse anyone they want as a private shelter. Legal and moral are two different things however.
Paganism has a lot about hospitality and consideration for a person's hosts and other guests.
Not sure at all from this story if the blame goes one-sided.
I'd certainly want the shelter to examine whether or not its living up to its own standards in this case. However, it's their charity, and they can distribute it as they see fit as long as they follow the laws of the land.
However, what made me laugh is probably a reporter error, but you've got to love a policy that states that "...the ladies can't read books with descriptive words..." No, only the men-folk are morally strong enough to withstand the reading of descriptive words: no newspapers or Bibles for you!
I hope one day the Pagan/Wiccan community has enough money and support to run homeless shelters that would not discriminate against any religious background.
"Nine other GIRLS in the ROOM? What's going on here, anyway? They didn't say WOMEN, and why are nine females (plus their children?) sharing ONE room?
hmmmmmm
Doesn't exactly sound like "shelter" to me; more like an indoctrination center............
I'm with enlightened77 on this one - I hope that one day Pagans have enough clout to run our own homeless shelter. Maybe we could team up with the UUs.
I did hear a sad story from a Big Issue vendor in Bristol, UK (the Big Issue is a magazine sold by homeless people which helps them get back on their feet) - a Pagan lady gave her a room, and it was all going really well, and then the local council told the homeless lady that she was no longer on the council housing waiting list because as far as they were concerned she was housed (even though it was only a temporary arrangement). So bureaucracy often prevents us from being charitable on our own initiative.
From what I have seen, Christian-run non-profits do have morality clauses to their services. Part of Bush's faith-based initiatives plan. Send government monies to Christian groups and let them do the services. Private contracting at it's best, or it's worst.
However, what gets me is that this mother would rather have her 7 year old sleep in the streets than take off some jewelry and be discrete with her paganism. At some point, everyone does what they need to get by. We all have to make moral choices at times, and what is so highly ethical in keeping her child homeless? Her responsibility is her child. It doesn't mean staying with someone abusive, but if services come with the price tag of religious discretion, maybe she needs to think of her child first.
There used to be a use of the word "Christian" that was an adjective for "charitable". I guess those folks never heard the word used that way.
I hope they're not getting any “State and locally-administered Federal funding”! (See http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/grants-catalog-index.html) Because if they are, they should have to pay it back.
It's unfortunate but there are a lot of homeless shelters that like to shove religion down your throat. Many years back my family feel on some really hard times, we had to use the shelters.
One kicked us out, and among many of the reasons was, we did not attend church. Most of their reasons were unfounded in my opinion.
The next one we went to was the opposite. First off it was a private shelter, not affiliated with a a church or a government agency. They worked with you to change your life around, not like that rest that treated had to find some fault with you. As for religion, the second shelter did have a preacher that came by, but no one was forced to go to the sermons.
We could wear our jewerly and other things that had pagan symbols on it. They were more concerned with how we got a long with the other people in the shelter and if we were doing our chores.
I have often wondered where are the pagan shelters, the pagan run soup kitchens, the pagan humanitarian organizations? That is one area that the pagan community should really strengthen.
"However, what gets me is that this mother would rather have her 7 year old sleep in the streets than take off some jewelry and be discrete with her paganism."
Ah, how we love to judge one another and divide, especially over "but what about the children?!" No one here knows that she was given the choice to resind her decision. What if it was the case that she said she could not because it was important to her and a symbol of faith that she desperately needed now in a very hard time and was told she had to leave - and that was that. Not given a choice, but told.
And if she did have a choice, there is a Christian saying I like a lot,
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone." No one wins the perfect parenting game and your condemnation helps nothing. This woman was escaping a life of hell and abuse and had no where to go. Her life was in frieghtening crisis. If she clung to something important to her, tried to defend some small part of what is hers in a time when she feels she is losing everything - love, home, a way to feed herself and her child - it may have been the wrong decision, but its a human trait to make some really poor decisions when under severe emotional and physical distress. Really, who is anyone to judge and why waste the time? Better to spend such time on compassion or making a better world for such mothers and children.
It would be nice to find out who the heck turtlemoon135 is. Seriously, if he/she had been forced to take off thier cross, im sure they would whine religious discrimination (yes i smell christian fundies a mile a way) Anyways, I ve asked before, and ill ask agian, are you ready to war with the christians? I chose my side, and I remeber I almost had to go to a homeless shelter, you know what i did instead? I slept in my car. I dont like the way society is run , and you bet your butt that me and my husband are working to change it, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, but anything is better than a Pagan being run out of a homeless shelter because she wasnt christian like the rest of society.
A person shouldnt have to give up thier religion just to please others, and so what that she has a child, thats her child, and her buisness only. Thats another problem i have with society, once you have a child everyone else tells you how to raise it, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS. If this article is any indication, christians are disgusting, vile, intolerant people, and if the shoe were on the other foot, the christian would yell persecution, yet its ok because its a Pagan. No, the witchtrials was not ok, and neither was the holocaust. christianity's days are almost over.
I think it was a bit carless of her to go public with this story. If she is running from an abusive relationship this was not a smart move. choose your battles.
It seems unconscionable to me that a homeless shelter, Christian or otherwise, would turn out a person because of their faith... or the shelter's ignorance of it. The shelter should be wallowing in shame about now.
That being said, Elnigma has a valid point as well. There is an old (pagan) saying: "When in another's home, worship [or at least respect] their Gods."
Certainly if the home is known as or advertised as a Christian home then it would be good manners to respect the people that are sheltering you for FREE by being discreet. How else could one thank them.
And, certainly one does need to be mature and think of one's child first instead of choosing to rebel against authority or those who provide shelter FREE of charge.
If this was a Muslim home, there would be no tolerance for pagan, Christian, or Jewish symbols. In fact, one would not be able to pray out loud in public or use any language to try to convert.
I get very tired of hearing Christians bashed because someone wants to prove a point.
Critics of these types of shelters IMHO, should examine their motives, maturity and priorities.
She doesn't care that she went public because she wasn't in an abusive relationship. She left her husband and the baby; then had the baby for a "visit" and ran off with him. His father has no clue where he is or how he is. The baby was living in a warm loving home with his own bed, clothes and food. He had a family, until his "mother" stole him away from it. Don't feel sorry for her. Help the father get his son back. She has caused havoc wherever she runs and she runs all the time. How do I know? She lived with me for awhile. I put up with her BS until she couldn't handle her mess anymore and then she left.
"She doesn't care that she went public because she wasn't in an abusive relationship. She left her husband and the baby; then had the baby for a "visit" and ran off with him. His father has no clue where he is or how he is. The baby was living in a warm loving home with his own bed, clothes and food. He had a family, until his "mother" stole him away from it. Don't feel sorry for her. Help the father get his son back. She has caused havoc wherever she runs and she runs all the time. How do I know? She lived with me for awhile. I put up with her BS until she couldn't handle her mess anymore and then she left."
If what this reads is true (and I am not saying it isn't mind you) then it seems to me that law officials would have been called in. Where were they during this whole ordeal? Even more important,how come you didn't assist the father in getting his son back when you obviously had not only the opportunity but also this knowledge? Do I hear accessory to,during and after the fact? I still refere back to the whole message of this artical, Where has humanity gone? Where has compassion gone? I can't help but believe that if one is steadfastly committed to their beliefs then they should not be so easily swayed or threatened by someone elses conflicting beliefs.
The whole point to this artical is outright descrimination! Some of the responses on this artical seem to point out that her jewelry should have been removed because when in Rome do as the Romans do but does that have to mean you have to compromise your own beliefs? I just had my PAGAN(Handfasting)Wedding where I had guests of various religious backgrounds who attended and I never once thought to tell them to remove their religious jewelry, it is not my place to force anyone into a belief not of their own choosing! I think that people have become to petty and juvinile in their thinking proccess any more and the all sides of this story need a wake up call to the cold hard facts that everyone has rights. The real problem here is the fact that neither side really thought through the situations at hand and both sides did not think through the issues and use "simple common sence" or weigh out the pros and cons of the choices they made.
For those who have stood by me, I appreciate it. As for the one who claims he had a "family", she used to be my best friend, until she decided she wanted to try to take my child from me, and got together with my ex to play mind-games with me.
I'm doing much better and have found shelter. I'm in awe of how many people have chosen to support my stance, and would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Blessed be.
Kowe,
Good for you, Dont back down stand your ground protecting YOUR son from the crazy people that you were with. I was there for you then an Im still here for you. I got your back NO MATTER WHAT!!!
Kowe I have to admire your steadfastness and strength in times of adversity. Props to you. May the goddess stand by you always and bless you beyond your dreams. In my previous post I chose not to side really with anyone but know this I understand your dilema as I was in your shoes not so long ago myself though I didn't need to hide my religious beliefs to appease anyone. There is not one person here who could know the whole story from start to finish and therefore not one person could say for sure what they themselves would have done in your cercumastance for sure. I do believe however that the powers that be have and will continue to look out for you and your son. We all have tests that we must make decisions about. Your dedication to your beliefs should be an example to all, and when we are faced with our own tests I would hope that we would all cling to our own beliefs and not be swayed or crumble.
With that being said, I cannot say that you made the right desision for anyone else but for yourself and your son as it is evident that the Goddess has smiled upon your and your choices you made and has provided for you both in the end. As for everyone else here this story reached other websites such as the following one where some eye opening replys have been made to this story. http://www.topix.net/religion/pagan-wiccan/2008/06/pagan-woman-kicked-out-of-christian-homeless-shelter/p5#lastPost
First of all, I just found this link, so I am not the one that posted before, RACHEL. There were many witnesses to you.
Second, I didn't get together with your ex to steal your child and play mind games. We are not together, we live in the same house.
Third, I saw the way you treated your child, yelling and screaming at him to "shut the F*ck up" is not being a good mother.
Fourth, For the person that stated that he should get the police involved... His father did.
Fifth, This mother, walked out on her son and husband for not 1 man, but 2. And bolted out of state instead of standing on her own, after her second boyfriend dumped her for lying among things, and doing as she stated she would which was "To never keep her son from his father".
Sixth, his father is the most pacifist person I have ever met, I honestly don't see how anyone could ever believe he would hurt anyone, let alone two people he loves.
Seventh, he always let her see their son and told him everything she ever asked of him. Even when she threatened to leave state.
Eighth, she is the one that stated herself to several people that she was a bad mom and that her husband should have custody of their son, that she just wanted visitation. And when she changed her mind and wanted equal custody, he was fine with it.
Squeak,
I was there I know the situation and YOU are WRONG. She left to protect herself and HER son from the abusive situation that was going on. Raven and HER son are doing alot better than they were. HER son is thriving now that he is away from all the abusive people that were around him. So you shut the F?CK UP.
Peaches
So peaches,
You were there the entire time, and you KNOW the situation? Did you see this alleged abuse going on? Why is it that the Father had custody for so long IF he was abusive? Why was it that the little one finally started gaining weight when he was living with his father? Why was it that He stopped screaming all through the night when he was with his father?
You're saying that she left to protect her self when she hadn't even been living with the accused for almost four months, much rather she had been living with her lover, and THEIR son had been living with his father not to mention the mother willingly giving the father verbal custody. Which she had visitation any time she wished.
You seem like a very good friend, I could only hope to have someone step up for me like you have for Kowe but, I'm sorry, you have not been around for the whole situation, because I honestly have not either. I have been around both parties though, I spent two months with Kowe and Four months with the father.
I saw whats going on, saw the messages she sent him and I'm seeing the anguish he is going through right now.
You are a good friend, you must be to stand beside someone and help someone as much as it seems you have but have you ever taken a pause to think that there may be another side to the story?
10You know what I know what I need to know. I did what I had to do to take care of my friend, If I had to do it again I would. NO MATTER WHAT.
Peaches,
Yes, I know what you know and what you need to know and I would absolutely love to talk to you one day person to person. I have to say that I'm truly intrigued by you. My E-mail is Luvgolds88@yahoo.com Please. contact me.
Never going to happen, I only let people that I know an trust around me. Im only here to protect an stand up for my friend.
Peaches
I don't want to be around you, dear. I'm the same way in only wanting people I actually trust around me. So you're here to protect Kowe from what? not much can attack you over the computer usually. You don't have to E-mail me if you choose not too I was just saying that I wanted to talk to you in something other than a comment spot where we are talking about things not involving the subject of the forum. I would really like to hear both sides of the story and I figured I could talk to you and hear the side that I haven't gotten to hear.
ok... to all of those who have helped my brother, thank you, and that's not from him... that's from me.
Kowe,
i trusted you. but i now see that everyone was right. you are a liar, and a user.
i hope that one day you come to your senses and realize that what you have done is wrong.
but for now i will just stop writing, but i have so much more to say to you.
For everyone that has had to listen to this, I hope that you, at the very least, realize that there are many sides to a story.
For Peaches, I was there. I've known both of them since before they were married. I talked to Rachel almost every day of my life for more than 3 years, up until she started treating me like garbage just because her boyfriend didn't like me, about 4 months ago. So you can not tell me that I was not there.
Also, you did not have to listen to her tell people that she wished that she had never had him so that she would be free to party whenever she wanted. Or watch her switch from loving her husband to hating him all because some other guy looked her way. And have to watch her outright lie to her husband when she was dating people even before asking for separation or divorce.
She was not near her husband from the date she moved to Oklahoma, January 22, till she jumped state on May 19, unless there were witnesses around. All that were present can attest that there was no abuse.
The claims of abuse were never supported, and the only injury I had heard of during the entire marriage was when SHE broke an ashtray by slamming it into a table because she was going to throw it at her husband and changed her mind. The only time I ever heard of him putting a hand out in any way during their arguments was to hold her wrist to keep HER from hitting HIM.
She could have made things work down here. There are apartments, there are jobs, and according to you, she had friends to support her here.
She swore everyday that she would never deny her son his father, and that she would never deny her husband his son. She swore her word was her honor, and that she would never break her word. She broke her own word; she outright denies her husband any kind of contact with their son. She disappeared with their son after stating to her husband that he would be home by bedtime and that he should believe her as her word should be good enough.
She got dumped and kicked out by her boyfriend for lying and trying to destroy another friend’s life. All because she was jealous of the girl and knew that her boyfriend had a crush on the girl.
I've lived with her twice in my life, she never wanted to clean or support her way in the home. I've seen her lose her places to live due to her attitude and her unwillingness to keep to house rules, even when those rules were to clean up after herself. One of the main reasons the couple lost out on the shelter they lived in before moving down to Oklahoma was that they didn’t keep that clean. The fact that her husband cleans up after himself and after their son when he was living here, helps to attest to the fact that it was a good portion her own fault for the non-cleanliness there as well.
She got upset and claimed I was dating her husband all because people here realized that she was lying and manipulative and didn’t outright believe her when she suddenly started claiming several claims of abuse without being able to keep her stories straight. Especially since the claims only started after she wanted to go out with a man that didn’t want to date a married woman. She was upset that people got to know her husband and realized who he was as a person and saw through her stories the more they got to know him.
So many people involved never got the full story. So many people never bothered to think that if she lied about everything else, that she could be lying about her husband and the shelter. Now the shelter and her husband’s names have been dragged through the dirt, all because people don’t bother to get all the sides of a story.
You know what I WAS there for her you just dont remember me. I was there when she left I know the entire story, Im still standing by her no matter what.
I do remember you, I also remember that you did not come into the picture until after the father had moved to Oklahoma, and that the only time you were at my home was the day you helped her to leave.
You did not get the entire story because you NEVER spoke to the father, myself, or anyone else except Rachel.
I do know who you are, your real name and what you look like. I have known since before the day you were here.
You also know me, and the father, and yet you have never spoken to either of us to get other sides to the story.
I know what I need to know. I did what I had to do to help out a friend. NO I dont want to know you or the "father"
You need to learn how to read every word. I did not say that I, nor the father for that matter, wanted to be your friend Peaches.
I stated that I do know who you are and that you knew who each of us was. Plain and simple.
I think that you are being very closed minded about the whole thing to only be listening to one side of the story.
And for that fact alone would be reason enough for not being your friend. That you can not think past the one side to realize there is so much more going on here.
You keep stating that you did what you "had to" for a friend. And that you "know what you need to know". But everything you know is from only one side of the story, so fact is, you don't know everything about what is going on.
Squeak,
He may be my brother, and the baby may be nephew, and they and Rachel have lived with me, but I realize that no one loves them quiet like you do, and I am very thankful for that. However, that has nothing to do with this blog, so i will just stop.
As for Peaches,
You have NOT been there the entire time. You do not know both sides of the story. I haven't been there the entire time either, i have not been there for even most of the time, but I have at least tried to hear both sides of the story, unlike you. If you are going to make an argument, at least know all the facts so that you have a GOOD argument. That wasn't a command, simply a request.
Kowe,
You have done some awful things in your life, and most have forgiven you or at least tried to. You have always had friends as well. But i am begging you to please just allow the father contact with his son. Please!
I garuntee that if you keep doing what you are doing, you will eventually have no where to go.
Again, thank you to all who have helped my brother.
She was not asked to give up her religion. This is no different than a Christian student being told they cannot pray over the PA system at a public school.
A Christian center should not be forced to allow persons in who are there to promote rhetoric about something other than Christianity. Try preaching that homosexuality is wrong at a gay center and see what happens. I don't think they will be loving or tolerant about it either.
Christians who are homeless should have the right to go to shelters which espouse and encourage their values and will protect them from other influences. I do hope that Wiccan/Pagan groups will step up to the plate and offer services. Atheists and agnostics too.
I have a hard enough time being able to find a shelter which does not discriminate against me based on gender. I am a transsexual, and I have been homeless. I tried to get into a women's shelter, and they said that the information on my ID didn't match who I was and they could not let me in. Then I went to the men's, and they told me to go back to the ladies. So, once like that I had to sleep on the streets. Two other times, I was forced to stay with the men, despite that being very degrading to me. They could not understand I am a woman with a birth defect, and the first night, I had to listen to men sitting up all night talking about wanting to kill f***ots. I am not one of those, so I was not offended by their obvious immaturity, but I was afraid they might be mistaking me for one of the people they hate.
I don't know entirely the WHOLE thing, but I was around for most of it...
To Raven, WTF where you thinking just taking off w/ Goober like that?? Knowing you had NO place to go and risking the chance that not just you, but him as well would have to sleep on streets he is 7-months old and it doesn't matter where you are it is HOT as hell in most states to hot for that baby to not have an ACed place to be. How are you feeding him, clothing him, Rave how are you even taking care of him right now??
To everyone that has been reading this... Raven DID leave her husband to come to Oklahoma she got a job where I was working and met one of my friends and decided to get in a relationship with them, she spread some rumors about another friend out of jealousy and almost cost her everything INCLUDING her son. Therefor the boy dumped her shortly after is when she took off.
I will be honest though I have been going through a ruff time of my own and been outta town staying with friends so I wasn't ALWAYS around, but I did make it point to atlest visit everyone.
I got to know the husband being accused and I will tell you he would never hurt anyone. How do I know because I have seen him in situations that I myself would've gone off the handle and hurt someone as to where he did nothing to harm anyone all he wanted to do was talk it out and work things out.
I have heard Raven say she wished she didnt have her son because she thought she wasn't a good mother , BUT I also talked to her later on and she admitted that she was scared and that she wanted to be a good mom she was just scared she wouldn't be and I told her she has to trust herself and have faith in herself and that I would help her with whatever she needed help with if I could.
I myself am not a mother, but I am a aunt to three beutiful little girls and so you learn things about kids.
Peaches, I don't know who you think you are and I am sure even though I use to work with you I don't know you... What you did was WRONG you helped take a baby out of a home where he was loved and cared for.
How do I know I was around I use to come over and hang out at the house and spend time with him.
There wasn't any abuse I know that now, but I was someone who at first beleived the things that was said about the accused, but I took the time to get to know him and to pay attenchen to detail and realize that it wasn't true.
Here is the messed up thing Rave I never told you that I knew you where lying about so many things because I do care for you and I do care about our friendship and I was affraid that you would end out friendship. You are not a bad person as some people think you are I think you are just confussed and scared and you feel like you are all alone and why you took me off your myspace I don't know either if it is because I am still friends w/ squeaks and others that hurts me a lot.
To squeaks you know I love you as a friend too and as a sister like I do Rave as well, but right now the most important thing is getting rave back to oklahoma and getting the baby to a save place and letting his father see him.
All that has ever come out of this whole mess is fighting not physical either mental and words and now it has cost a loving father his child.
This father never wanted the marriage to end as far as I know.
But all of that doesnt matter now what matter RIGHT NOW is the safety of RAVE and Goober.
So everyone STOP THE FIGHTING AND BULL I AM NOT TAKING SIDES I NEVER HAVE AND I NEVER WILL!
It may seem like I am taking sides when I am not I am just tryin to clear the names that have been slandered, by all this fighting.
As said befor though the ONLY thing that matters right now is the safty of MY FRIEND RAVE AND HER CHILD.
Raven I love you and I don't know what is going on w/ you right now, but you need to contact me somehow and let me know you are okay and that goob is okay.
STOP THE FIGHTING!!!! THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT HERE!!
Lee,
I know where Raven and her son are at. They are safe an NOT on the streets. They are NOT coming back to Oklahoma.
Peaches
Peaches,
No offence, but you need stay out of this. You did your part and honestly unless Rave is w/ you I don't care what you have to say!
Raven you need to come home!!!!
Lee,
Im not going to stay out of this. Raven is my friend and Im going to protect her NO MATTER WHAT!!!! I know where they are an they are safe, leave them ALONE.
Peaches
Peaches,
I WILL NOT LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!
UNLIKE YOU I AM A TRUE FRIEND INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HELP HER RUN FROM A PROBLEM MAYBE YOU SHOULD'VE JUST HELPED HER GET THROUGH IT!!!!
I AM NOT OUT TO GET RAVEN NO ONE IS NOT EVEN SQUEAKS IS, BUT RAVEN LIED ABOUT THINGS THAT SHE NEEDS TO COME CLEAN ABOUT AND FACE THE FACTS RUNNING AWAY ISN'T GOING TO FIX ANYTHING!!!!
A TRUE FRIEND WOULD LOOK FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF GOOBER!!!!
Raven you need to come home and get all this resolved and let Gab see his Father it is the right thing to do. When he was with his Dad his dad never told you that you couldn't see him.
You need to come home and stay with a real friend that will protect you, but not let you keep making the wrong choices.
I am not on a side in the except Goob's
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