Interview with Gus diZerega

Author and academic Gus diZerega is one of the strongest Pagan voices on the importance of Christian-Pagan dialog. His 2001 book "Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience" was a bridge-building work that sought to begin a reconciliation between Pagans and Christians, and emphasized a need for more communication. Now, the journey that started with "Pagans & Christians" continues with "Beyond the Burning Times: A Pagan and Christian in Dialogue", a truly open conversation with Australian theologian Philip Johnson that explores our differences and similarities. I was lucky enough to conduct an e-mail interview with Gus diZerega concerning this book, what he learned from the experience, and why Christians seem to worry so much about the Pagan resurgence.


Gus diZerega

While there are certainly tensions between Christianity and other non-Christian faiths, there seems to be something about modern Pagan religions that especially troubles certain factions within the larger Christian community. What is it about Paganism that makes some Christians worry about us so much, even though we are relatively tiny in size?

I think there are a number of reasons. It’s a complex matter. First, we have arisen within a Christian culture, a very self confident one, and we explicitly reject its Abrahamic spiritual tradition as being good for us. Not only that, we look to the pre-Christian past for inspiration and grounding. We represent the rise of something Christian leaders thought they had vanquished long ago, and we should never forget that initial vanquishing involved the sword far more than persuasion. Add religious liberty and the outcome would have been far different. For the most rabid of our attackers, our reappearance also seems evidence that we are in the end times, a time of religious war, at least for the likes of Dispenastionalists.

It matters that many of us have ‘fallen away’ from our childhood Christianity. In my experience, strong believers of secular ideologies are least tolerant of those who once shared their views, and now differ. I suspect it is no different here. We saw the ‘truth’ and rejected it, which from a believers’ need for certainty, is worse than being ignorant.

In addition, modern Paganism locates the sacred in the world as well as above it, fundamentally challenging Christianity as it has usually presented itself. Many lay Christians are potentially sympathetic to our position because it is in accord with their own experience of the sacred. We didn’t come up with terms like “God’s country,” after all. Experience has often been at war with dogma in Christian history and our emphasis on almost anything but dogma is very hard for dogma to rebut or dogmatics to tolerate.

Our emphasis on divine immanence also undermines many dimensions of conservative and Fundamentalist Christian theology. Most of the world’s major religions emphasize a salvational or similar purpose for us in this vale of tears. We reject this spiritual problem as relevant for us, and so our challenge is deeper than our rather small numbers suggest. We open a very threatening door that others might pass through.

For example, we honor the Divine Feminine as first among equals. That portion of the Christian community that most viciously attacks Pagans also has also most thoroughly eliminated the feminine from their image of the sacred. They have almost nothing to offer women spiritually beyond preserving their ignorance that alternatives exist to their psychological and spiritual misogyny.

More liberal Christians are now seeking to inject or rediscover the feminine into their conception of deity. Our existence has encouraged many within the Christian community to recognize the feminine face of deity. But doing so strikes at the core of fundamentalist theology which privileges divine power over divine love. So we are a double threat, first by our example, second, by others encouraged by our example to recognize a stronger feminine role in their own tradition.

We also recognize the sacred as it manifests within the forces of nature, and our holy days explicitly honor natural cycles and seasons. As I explained in Pagans and Christians, even the Old Testament shows a powerful ecological ethic. It does not find nature to be sacred, as we do, because the tradition generally sees nature as God’s artifact, but most certainly the sacred is seen to manifest through nature. This aspect of Christianity has been largely ignored until recently, excepting small but important examples like Saint Francis.

But modern right-wing Christianity is deeply committed to dominating nature, subjugating it, and in its most pathological forms, using it up since we are supposed to get a new earth after Armageddon. Their God is a God of will and domination, and they seek to replicate these characteristics in their relations to the land and towards people who differ from them. Our very existence helps expose the poverty, narcissism, and arbitrariness of their view of the sacred, and for many people we provide an attractive alternative to such stuff. This kind of Christian will always be threatened by us.

But this implacable hostility is not true for all Christians. Philip Johnson certainly is not guilty. We Pagans need to remember that Christianity is incredibly diverse. I myself have come to think of Christianity as a umbrella term for a variety of competing monotheisms, a kind of closet polytheism: pick the God you want so long as it is male, and worship only it. Catholics, Southern Baptists, Pentecostals and Methodists worship very different Gods. Their Jesus figures differ as well. That is why Pentecostalist Pat Robertson could describe Methodists as being in the spirit of the Antichrist. It is why whenever I offer a criticism of Christianity, I seem always to be told that that is not true for all Christians. Probably nothing is true for all Christians except their use of the name.

Now many Christians are innocent of the problems I outlined above, other than the polytheism issue, but these are not the ones you asked me about.

Your book, "Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience", which came out in 2001, sought to "reconcile" Paganism and Christianity. Now, with the publication of this dialog in 2008, do you think we are any closer? Is there more understanding and trust between our faith communities?

Let me dispel a possible misunderstanding. The term “reconcile” was not mine. I will be very happy with mutual toleration. A great many Christians believe their old claim that they are the only way by which people can be saved from Hell, and as Christians they have a duty to ‘witness’ in order to save us. Pagans by contrast do not believe we are the only spiritually valid path, nor do we believe we have any duty to bring the truths of Paganism to others. If others are interested, we are happy to invite their participation, and unlike earlier times, we can now be public. We do not go door to door, we do not stand on street corners with literature or megaphones, we do not finance missionaries, we do not attack other spiritual paths if they leave us alone.

I did offer a pretty straightforward Biblical interpretation that pointed directly towards spiritual pluralism. If that or something like it were accepted, reconciliation would follow as they recognized the legitimacy of multiple paths. But that choice is theirs.

So the real task of reconciliation is on the part of Christians, not Pagans, because we have no problem with Christianity so long as it respects our own religious freedom. Christians need to recognize they are one (well, many) spiritual path among many others, of which Pagans are only one.

In fact a great many Christians are coming to this recognition. Christians getting involved in interfaith work discover their path is far from the only one speaking to sincere people in spiritually valid ways. They take their discoveries back to their own faith communities. The fundamentalists who attack interfaith claim it is part of a plot to create one world religion, but anyone actually involved knows this is delusional or dishonest. We are all learning to respect one another, and when that happens, no reconciliation is needed.

As a result of many Pagans getting involved in interfaith dialogue, today we can see we have made incredible strides in dispelling false beliefs about who we are and what we do, and among the more liberal Christian community We have also forged many strong personal ties of affection, regard and respect. There we have seen enormous progress.

On the other hand, and here I speak of the United States only because I do not know whether this madness strongly afflicts other cultures, the eruption of an aggressive fundamentalist, authoritarian, politicized Christianity has increased the level of nasty rhetoric and potentially also of nasty actions against us. Christianity is bifurcating between traditions who recognize they are part of an irreducibly religiously plural world, and those who see themselves in a life and death struggle with beliefs different from their own. This latter group is powerful, but I think they have over played their hand, and so I am optimistic that the positive changes will ultimately count for more than their hatred, and that the needed reconciliation will mostly take place.

In the section on interfaith work, you said that Pagans can be of great service to the larger spiritual community. Could you elaborate on what qualities make Pagans so well-suited for interfaith activities?

As a religious community, we are relatively unusual in being free from that orientation, thoroughly conversant with modern values, and unusually well represented in the computer and internet technologies so useful in building interfaith networks. I know these traits have helped interfaith work in California and even more droadly, and I would imagine they would be equally helpful elsewhere.

Because of our openness to the validity of other spiritual paths, Pagans are well suited to be “honest brokers” in interfaith discussions. In addition, we have already played a significant role in empowering many aboriginal and indigenous spiritual communities in part, at least, because we do not look down on them as primitive or ignorant. After all, much of what they do, we do. In general, the stronger the interfaith community; the safer the Pagan community.

In your conclusion, you say that Paganism "decenters" religion, just as spirituality "decenters" the self. Could explain to my audience what that means, and how this phenomenon within Paganism differentiates us from Christian religion?

When I said spirituality decenters the self I meant it puts our personal concerns in a larger and deeper context, the largest and deepest we two leggeds can encompass. When I am focused on my own self as separate from everyone else, I can end up obsessing over even very tiny slights or misunderstandings, growing them into mountains of resentment and anger. We probably have all had the experience of focusing on some problem, making it a Big Deal, and we then see someone in a wheelchair. What seemed so big suddenly becomes very small. Spirituality puts everything we experience not only into a bigger context, it is a context characterized by meaning, compassion, beauty, and love. Such has been my experience anyway. So the self ceases to be the center of our universe once we begin to grasp this larger context.

Paganism does the same for religion by demonstrating one can be genuinely and deeply religious without saying my or any other path is best, and that every religion as we practice it illuminates only a portion of the whole divine picture. We free ourselves from equating genuine spirituality with a particular path or expression of the sacred. Instead, it is a quality of engagement found within many paths.

Think of your family. You are likely very devoted to your family without thereby thinking all other families are inferior. They are simply not your family. Same with religion. Now think back how grim the world was when people honored and trusted only their families. Where such attitudes survive, as in Southern Italy, they contribute to suspicion, violence, and oppression.

Religions are different recognitions and celebrations of humankind’s encounter with that which is superhuman. They are perhaps the most fulfilling expressions of human creativity in this world, bringing together all of our arts, our philosophies and theologies, our hearts and our minds, all in a recognition and honoring of the sacred that underlies and manifests in our reality.

To pick another mundane example, each religion is akin to a composer of beautiful music. It is as silly to confuse a composer with music as it is to confuse a religion with spirituality.

Now that you have engaged in this dialog with Philip Johnson, in what ways do you feel you have deepened your understanding of Christianity? Has it altered how you envision them in any way?

I was quite taken by his evident sincerity and with the good will underlying this sincerity. Philip Johnson challenged in a happy way the impression I had formed that most evangelicals were arrogant, regarding others’ spiritual and religious practices as Satanic errors or a sign of deep and catastrophic ignorance. The best of them were good people but very narrow in their appreciation for others.

Before working with Philip the only significant exception to my unhappy conclusion were a very few people I had had the pleasure of meeting who were associated with the Spiritual Counterfeits Project. Philip Johnson and Lion Hudson Press have sensitized me further to the great complexity of the evangelical community.

We will probably never agree on the ultimate nature of spiritual reality, but we don’t have to. Philip may still think I am destined for hell, I don’t know. But I am convinced he is willing to leave that issue and its outcome up to me and God.

His example makes me more optimistic than ever before that we will be able to live together with mutual good will and respect.

In the book's "responsive thoughts", Lainie Petersen criticizes you for "raising the specters" of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell in the section on culture wars. Do you think Pagans overestimate the influence and power of these men (and men like them)? Is it "unfair" to name-check the most "bombastic" of fundamentalists when engaging in a dialog?

I do not think it is unfair at all. If I did not mention them, they would be the 500 pound gorilla in the closet. Why did I not address them? They have largely defined what Christianity is in the American media for many years. It is a false picture, promoted by the corporate press for political reasons, as well as lazy and craven reporters who have lost all competence in doing their job, and right wing politicians using them to split the public so they would get what Pat Buchanan described as the ‘bigger half.’ But it has been the dominant picture nonetheless.

Second, so long as a religion claims to be fundamentally more true than any others, it will encourage a certain kind of narcissistic believer to lord it over everyone else. Give those people access to political power and you have the possibility of their creating Hell on earth. In terms of how they would want to treat others the only major difference between people like that and the Taliban and Al Qaeda is lack of sufficient power.

Third, the culture war is basically an assault on the feminine in the name of a pathological masculinity, a masculinity that is not only out of balance, it denies that balance is even an issue because the feminine can be ignored. At its core modern NeoPaganism is a recognition of the feminine as equal to the masculine in ALL things. And so the culture war waged by so-called ‘Christians” and their secular right wing allies is at its core an assault on what is must central to our spirituality.

Fourth, the rest of the Christian community seems for the most part to have not denounced what is done and advocated in its name. They should not be surprised that we treat these people as Christians. They themselves do.

Christians cannot have it both ways. If the ‘Christian’ right, including certain conservative Catholics, are considered legitimate Christians, and they spread hatred and lies about us, and have access to political power, in self-defense we will focus on them and the threat they poses. If other Christians strongly denounce these people publicly, and reject what they do as Christian, then on matter of dialogue we can spend much more time on more interesting topics.

From excommunication to shunning, Christians have a variety of ways of demonstrating someone is no longer a member of their community. It is past time they did so with these people.

If you could transmit just one idea or fact about modern Paganism to Christians, what would it be?

We are not trying to proselytize. We certainly are personally committed to our own path as a good one for us and are happy to share it. But it is of small moment to us whether you join us or not. If you do – welcome! If you do not, we wish you fulfillment wherever Spirit may lead you. Get your house in order and then, if you want, visit ours as a guest.

Now that this book is out, what is the "next step". What advice would you give Christians and Pagans wanting to continue the work begun in this book?

Get involved in interfaith work in your local communities. False beliefs about us are best dispelled through personal contact. It is easy to believe falsehoods about people we do not know. And of course that cuts both ways. The Christians you meet in interfaith work will be among the most committed and caring in their community. So it is a win-win situation for us all.

One of my fondest memories is organizing an interfaith tree planting in Berkeley, California. Each religious group conducted their own planting in their own way. But we planted them together. The dark forces unleashed by those worshipping power and domination are best undermined when we do not divide ourselves into exclusive communities looking distrustfully out on everyone else. That is why those forces seek to sow distrust. We all have our own communities, and that is as it should be. But we can leave our doors open to the neighbors.

[Stay tuned for "part two" of my "Beyond the Burning Times"-themed interviews. In the next installment, I'll be interviewing Christian theologian Philip Johnson.]

Previous Wild Hunt interviews: Jeff Sharlet, Brendan Cathbad Myers, Rita Moran, Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, Phyllis Curott, Tim Ward, Lupa, J.C. Hallman, Margot Adler.

Labels: Beyond the Burning Times, books, Christianity, Gus diZerega, interfaith, interview, Paganism, Wicca

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Joel Hunter Clarifies His Benediction

Quite a bit of attention has been paid to the closing Democratic National Convention benediction made by evangelical pastor Dr. Joel C. Hunter of Northland Church in Florida. Specifically the closing instruction made by Hunter.

"Now I interrupt this prayer for a closing instruction. I want to personalize this. I want this to be a participatory prayer. And so therefore, because we are in a country that is still welcoming all faiths, I would like all of us to close this prayer in the way your faith tradition would close your prayer."



This openness to all faith traditions greatly moved many people, including Pagan delegate Rita Moran, who had this to say about the benediction.

"At the end of a wonderful, joyful night, complete with fireworks and confetti (including a cascade of white stars), came an invocation. Until the last, there was no hint of how it would close, but then it came: the minister said he would pause before the end of the prayer and encouraged everyone in Invesco Field to finish it as they would in their own faith tradition. And so the Gods came to that venue, as I completed the invocation with 'by the Gods of my people, so mote it be!'"

But apparently not everyone was ecstatic about Republican Hunter's careful prayer for the Democrats. Religion reporter and columnist Terry Mattingly points out that Hunter has posted an "open letter" explaining his prayer to those confused or upset at his unique closing instruction.

"I did not ask people to pray to another god; I asked them to finish a prayer according to their faith tradition. This may be a small point linguistically, but it is a huge point theologically."

In other words, he meant you should pray to the Abrahamic God in any manner you please, but that shouldn't be misconstrued as encouraging polytheism (or prayers to any other non-Abrahamic power). So it looks like a truly interfaith prayer has been "clarified" to exclude anyone Hunter's congregation and co-religionists might find too far outside the "norm" to be acceptable. After all, we wouldn't want to be caught praying with Pagans would we?

Labels: Christianity, Democratic National Convention, interfaith, Joel Hunter, prayer

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(Pagan) News of Note

My semi-regular round-up of articles, essays, and opinions of note for discerning Pagans and Heathens.

West African Vodun is taking an important step towards modernization as Togo passes new laws (with the blessing of the Vodun divinities) that forbids pressing young girls into the service of the priesthood after their initiation as adepts.

"After a three-year campaign, rights groups claimed victory over a way of life that they said cut the girls off from their own families, sometimes involved ritual scarring -- and occasionally led to sexual abuse. But it took some intense lobbying of political and religious authorities in this small west African state -- and, it would seem, the voodoo divinities -- to get there ... Voodoo priests say that several hundred young girls are baptised every year as voodoo adepts, or voodoosi, after lengthy initiation rites of between three months and two years. Under the old system, instead of rejoining their families after these ceremonies, they had to stay at voodoo convents to serve the gods."

Under the new laws, it is a five-year prison sentence for anyone to take a child away from their family environment. This is a major shift in attitudes in one of the few countries where Vodun is still a major social and political power (60% of Togolese people are adherents of Vodun).

Speaking of Vodun, Speaking of Faith's blog takes you behind the scenes of their recent episode on Vodou.

"About two years ago, Patrick Bellegarde-Smith wrote us a brief e-mail asking if we had produced shows on “African and African-derived traditional religions” and recommended several volumes that he’d edited on Haitian Vodou, Cuban Santeria, Brazilian Candomble, and Umbanda. Our former associate producer Jessica Nordell called him asking for suggestions for people that he thought could speak about Vodou intimately. He was forthcoming and recommended many voices, including Claudine Michel. But we quickly realized that he was that voice — a Haitian aristocrat who was not only a scholar of the tradition but a practitioner who discovered Vodou in his early adulthood. We found his personal story about rediscovering his heritage and the spirit of the people of his country utterly captivating."

Check out SOF's archive of programs for a wealth of programming of interest to our faith communities.

In a town like Salem, even the cops are psychic!

"A retired Salem cop who swapped his badge for a crystal ball is still sleuthing - with backup from his friends from beyond the grave. Professional psychic medium Chuck Bergman, 57, spent 32 years pounding the beat in the Witch City, but says that since retiring five years ago he is finding old habits die hard. Initially skeptical of his “gift,” Bergman says he is now channeling the spirits to help police and desperate families find missing loved ones from coast to coast."

Forget "Medium", I want to see a police procedural set in Salem with a psychic cop! Maybe CSI: Salem? Forensics and Witchcraft, I'd watch it.

The Modesto Bee interviews a group of atheists about their struggles for tolerance and respect, including a self-described Pagan atheist.

"Shawna Amaral, a 22-year-old Modesto caregiver, said her parents and grandparents were Christians who never went to church or read the Bible when she was growing up. "They were too busy," she said. "Since nobody was there to teach me basic religion, I just came to believe that I can't believe in a god or a higher power or anything. "When I was 16 or 17, I discovered paganism, an earth-based religion. You don't have to believe in in a god or goddess, so I still consider myself an atheist in that way." Amaral said she lived in Alabama for a couple of years. When she told people she was an atheist, 'they'd call me a devil worshipper and said I'd go to hell. I'd laugh at them and ask how I could go to hell if I didn't believe in it to begin with.'"

I wonder if she has read Frederick Lamond's "Religion without Beliefs"?

While an American Indian spiritual leader hasn't been invited to the opening interfaith service at the Democratic National Convention, a gathering of Ute tribal leaders will be on hand for a "grand welcoming" ceremony.

"Colorado's first residents will offer the first official welcome to the Democratic National Convention in Denver Aug. 23, when Southern Ute, Ute Mountain Ute and Northern Ute tribal leaders and other Indian notables in full regalia will lead the pageantry of a grand entry before officials address some 13,000 media representatives. "It's the right thing to do, since they were the first people in the state of Colorado," said Holly Arnold Kinney, co-chair of the entertainment committee for the media event at Elitch Gardens near the Pepsi Center. The Ute Mountain and Southern Ute tribes are the only sovereign nations currently in Colorado, once considered home by the Northern Utes and many other tribes."

Interesting that Native Americans performing dances and songs tied to their indigenous faith traditions will be handled by the entertainment committee, while representatives from "mainstream" religions are organized by the head of the Democratic Party's Faith in Action initiative.

In a final note, the News Virginian reminds us that homeschooling comes in more flavors than right-wing Christian.

“For some reason, it’s gotten into the mindset of the public that homeschoolers are right-wing Christians,” said Ann Cameron Siegal, a homeschool mother and a volunteer for The Organization of Virginia Homeschoolers. “Obviously, there are people under that label, but there are also Jewish homeschoolers, Muslim homeschoolers and pagan homeschoolers; it ranges from far left to far right. If there is any unifying thing, it is the idea of freedom – freedom to pursue education, much like people did in the Colonial period, to the depth and breadth of what you want to do.”

My wife's youngest daughter was homeschooled, and is entering college this year as a sophomore. I'm proud to say I had a hand in her homeschooling, and there was nothing particularly Christian about it.

That is all I have for now, have a great day!

Labels: American Indian, atheism, Democratic National Convention, interfaith, Native American, Pagan News of Note, Paganism, psychics, Salem, Speaking of Faith, Vodou, Voodoo

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The Christian Presidency

Any illusion one might have had that the race for America's chief executive is a secular affair was thoroughly shattered yesterday at the Saddleback Civil Forum on The Presidency. Evangelical superstar Rick "Purpose Driven Life" Warren got the two candidates, Barack Obama and John McCain, to sit down individually in his church, submit to his questions, and expound on concerns most important to evangelical Christians.

"Now you've made no doubt about your faith in Jesus Christ, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to you to trust in Christ and what does it mean on a daily basis?"

The fact that several questions in the "civil" forum sounded more like a job interview for the pastor of a Christian church didn't escape the notice of the Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of Interfaith Alliance.

"Some of the questions Pastor Warren posed crossed the line and promoted the fiction that the American people are electing a pastor-in-chief, rather than a commander-in-chief. Questions like 'What does it mean to trust in Christ?' create a religious test for public office and should have no place in the political discourse for a secular office. America is the most religiously diverse country in the world, and Christianity is only one of those faith traditions. Millions of voters who tuned in tonight will feel disenfranchised by some of the questions posed in this forum."

Despite admonitions from interfaith activists, I doubt that the intense wooing of evangelicals will stop. With recent Presidential races being so evenly split, the "freestyle evangelicals" are portrayed as king-makers. Alienate them at your peril, and certainly don't be anything other than Christian if you hope to win. It is little wonder that this year's Democratic National Convention will commence with an interfaith service organized by a Pentecostal preacher, a first for the party, and a move that has troubled atheist and secular organizations.

"Democratic National Convention's Aug. 24 interfaith service in Denver is supposed to be about unity. But to a Washington, D.C., coalition that supports nontheistic views, it's about division. The Secular Coalition Group, a lobbying organization for church-and-state separation, is pushing to get an atheist on the speaker list, and contends the service is divisive because it alienates nonreligious Democrats at a time when the party needs to unite to support the presumptive nominee, Sen. Barack Obama."

It should be interesting to see how this will be resolved. Because if the party isn't ready to navigate a compromise between secularists and the monotheist (and token Buddhist "participant") interfaith club, what will they do when Hindu, Pagan, Native, and Afro-Caribbean faiths start asking for a place at the interfaith podium? The post-Christian era is upon us, and the longer the two major political parties court 25% of America's religious adherents to the near-exclusion of nearly everyone else, the sooner they experience irrelevance as that demographic becomes just one voice in a cacophony of faiths and philosophies.

Labels: atheism, Christianity, Democratic National Convention, interfaith, Paganism, politics, Presidential election, secularism

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How Bush Helped the Pagans

The San Francisco Gate reports on the annual conference of the North American Interfaith Network, and in the process gets a somewhat surprising quote from Wiccan chaplain Patrick McCollum.

"A landmark survey released in June found that 70 percent of Americans believe that multiple faiths can lead to salvation. It's a striking deviation from religious dogma. Some believe it's the result of a post-9/11 world. The Rev. Patrick McCollum, a Wiccan priest who is also director of the National Correctional Chaplaincy Directors Association, believes that it all started with President Bush."

What McCollum means is that shortly after 9-11, Bush made a speech where he said "Islam is peace," and in his opinion, this sparked a "dramatic shift" towards religious pluralism in America.

"There was a giant push for everyone to get along with everyone else and to acknowledge religions that weren't mainstream,"

Of course if George W. Bush did indeed help foster a new religious pluralism benefiting religious minorities, it was in spite of the way his administration insulted and discriminated against Pagans (not to mention Bush's personal views regarding Pagans). Perhaps it is a fitting irony that a Bush-era legacy will be more religious pluralism, considering how cozy his Presidency has been with strains of conservative Christianity that have historically viewed us as a sickness to be cured.

Labels: Bush, Christianity, interfaith, Paganism, Patrick McCollum

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Interview with Phyllis Curott

Recently, religious authorities in Saudi Arabia sentenced a woman, Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali, to death for the crime of "witchcraft". The "proof" for these acts were completely happenstance, attributing sorcerous causes to everyday occurrences, and her "confession" (since recanted) coerced through a string of beatings by the Mutaween (religious police). Lawyer, author, and activist Phyllis Curott has organized an interfaith response to this injustice, and I was lucky enough to be able to conduct a short interview with her regarding this case. What the facts are, what we can do, and why this issue should be important to modern Pagans.


Phyllis Curott

How did you hear about the case of Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali?

Because I'm an a attorney who's been active for about 25 years in the courts and media as an advocate for the rights of Wiccans, Pagans and others, I have "clipping" services that update me every day about events involving Witches, Witchcraft and related matters, particularly incidents of discrimination or persecution. Human Rights Watch sent their letter about FAWZA FALIH to King Abdullah on February 14th and the story was picked up by two important media outlets, CNN and the BBC, and the online services.

I read the HRW legal analysis of her case and was appalled. Her persecution, arrest by the military police, beating and torture, "trial," the whole thing was a grotesque travesty of justice. I kept imagining - feeling -- how frightened she must feel alone in prison waiting to die. After I finished crying, I got angry. I had to do something. I drafted an email asking people to join me in signing a letter that would be sent to King Abdullah, calling for her immediate pardon and release. I sent it to Our Freedom, and to clergy who'd become friends through Interfaith work.

I've always hoped that when we needed it, the Interfaith community would support us, and that's what happened. It's very moving to me to look at the list of the first twenty signators - the President of the World Muslim Congress, followed by a Rabbi who is the editor of Tikkun magazine, an Apache spiritual leader followed by several Christian ministers, Hindus, Jains, a Druid, a Wiccan and others. And now in one week we've gotten over 7000 signatures from people all over the world, from every faith tradition imaginable, and from people who are not religious.

Can you give us a little background on how this happened to her?

I would like to have more information. But, thanks to Human Rights Watch, this is what we know: She was arrested by the religious police in the northern town of Quraiyat in Saudi Arabia, May 4 2005. They held her and interrogated her for 35 days at the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV). In her appeal she said that she was beaten during her interrogation and she named an official of the governorate. She said that she lost consciousness during one beating and was treated at the hospital where other female prisoners bandaged her wounds. Human Rights Watch spoke to a relative who was allowed to visit her for the first time after about 20 days in CPVPV detention, after her hospital treatment, and saw marks from beatings on her back. So there's evidence that her confession was coerced.

The judges in the Quraiyat court did not define the meaning of "witchcraft." Instead they cited a variety of alleged actions, "intentions," and "tools" for "witchcraft." The court cited the claim of a man who said that he became impotent after being "bewitched." And a divorced woman reportedly returned to her ex-husband during the month predicted by Fawza, who also supposedly "cast the spell." The court record reveals that the "witchcraft" accusations were substantiated solely on the basis of statements by individuals who believed they had been "bewitched," and by "strange" objects reportedly found in Fawza's home and on a tree nearby - some noxious smelling stuff, two robes, one with money tied into knots in the robe.

She was never given the opportunity to prove her innocence against absurd charges that have no basis in law or fact. Fawza confessed, but it was coerced. She's illiterate and she says that her confession was not read to her and that she was forced to fingerprint because she couldn't sign it. Her family wasn't allowed to see her, she was denied access to her attorney, was not allowed to be present during most of the "trial" against her, couldn't confront witnesses. The appeal court overturned the lower court's decision because she had retracted her confession. But the judges in Quraiyat, reached a new verdict of June 6, 2007 and sentenced Fawza to death on a "discretionary" basis, in the name of "public interest" and to "preserve the creed and the souls and property of this country." Having exhausted her appeals, she is now awaiting execution by beheading. There is no date set, it could happen at any time, unless the King pardons her. That is why there is such urgency.

In addition to Saudi Arabia, Iran is now attempting to change its penal code to allow executions for witchcraft. How common do you feel cases like this are in the Middle East? Is this a new trend, or have we simply not been paying attention?

I don't know if it's a new trend or an old custom. Either way, we need to pay attention. Last year, in Saudi Arabia an Egyptian pharmacist was convicted of "sorcery" for supposedly trying to separate a couple, and he was beheaded in November 2007. The effort to change the Iranian penal code is very disturbing. The European Union has sent a letter protesting, but they'll probably be ignored.

We have to pay careful attention, we have to be vocal, organized, politically astute and connected, and quick to respond when we hear of any of these cases. At some point we may need to replace ad hoc activism with solid ongoing organization. The widescale repression of women, out of which this incident arises, has to be challenged. Unlike the ending of apartheid, the global community has failed in its moral responsibility. We need to be the voice of its conscience. That is one of the most important roles of new religious faiths - to reinvigorate and transform what has become dead and deadly.

But I am very concerned about what comes next for a historical reason. I realized while working on my next book that the feminine divine was expunged from the old Hebrew traditions and priestesses were killed around 1300 - 1400 years into the development of the Hebrew religion. Around 1300 years into Christianity, the Witchcraze began. It is now about 1300 years into the development of Islam, which began in the 700s. It seems that at this particular point in their development, all three of the monotheistic male-dominated religions go through a phase of authoritarian fundamentalism, violent misogyny and very bloody repression of women. I'm afraid that we may be witnessing that now in the fundamentalist Islamic states. It is, however, offset by progressive, educated elements within those countries and within Islam, and a broader sense of human rights in the world that surrounds them. That is where hope, and change, comes from.

Why do you feel this is case should be important to the modern Pagan community?

But for a few hundred years of history or a bit of geography or a few more years of fundamentalist political influence in this country, what is happening to Fawza could be happening to any one of us. The fact that she is illiterate, that she is a simple woman in a remote part of the world who is facing this terror all alone makes her the most important person in the world. She is the measure of our humanity, our compassion, our decency, our commitment to our spirituality. We're all connected. Her suffering is ours, her pain is ours. I felt and I had to do something. There are endless differences in our community, but I believe that we are all united in a divine power that is present in the world. If we live in a sacred world, we must behave in a sacred manner. Whether we are Wiccans, or Christians, or Muslims we are all children of the Earth, of the Sacred. We are kin, we are connected.

And there's another reason. I don't think that Fawza was practicing anything resembling what most of us now call Wicca and Witchcraft. If she was doing anything, which is not clear, it may have been some kind of old traditional folk magic. It doesn't matter - she is sentenced to die by beheading for Witchcraft. That is the word many of us use to identify ourselves. That word means that she is a member of our community. And we are not a community if we don't take care of each other. We may not be able to save Fawza, but we must try.

Should the worldwide problem of witch-killings and persecutions in places like the Middle East, Africa, and India be a Pagan issue?

Yes, I believe it is. We are all connected. But it is a huge problem and I'm realistic about what we can and can't accomplish. I'm also an optimist and an activist and if we don't try to change things, nothing will change. Look at this movement we're all a part of - it's huge, it's growing, it's public, we have legal clergy and legal rights. That was not the case 30 years ago. It was a struggle, a battle to achieve a lot of those things. I know, I was part of those fights. And we're still fighting - the pentacle case is the most recent example. But when we fight, we win.

I get articles about killings from the African and Indian press almost every day. People - so often women - are singled out and murdered just because of an accusation of Witchcraft. We know what that means. That is part of our history. I think we need to respond to that dangerous persecution wherever it arises. It has to be stopped before it spreads. But it may be years before our community is large enough, has enough resources and enough presence in the global community to affect these situations. Working to save Fawza can teach us how to be effective the next time something like this happens -- we'll have better skills, better organization, better contacts, more wisdom.

You have been instrumental in building an interfaith coalition to put moral pressure on Saudi Arabia, how have other faith communities and religious leaders responded to this crisis?

They've been wonderful. Granted, the people I approached were people I knew, had close relationships with, had worked with. And they in turn reached out to people with whom they had relationships. They are very courageous and compassionate and I have such gratitude and respect for all of them. To me they are the proof that at the heart of all faiths is the common aspiration to live in the most compassionate, loving, kind and generous way, because that is what divinity is truly about, no matter what face it wears or name it's called. Now all sorts of clergy and people from all over the globe are signing the petition. Amazing, wonderful. It's so inspiring, it gives me hope that we can have a future where all faith traditions not only live together in peace, but in community.

Have Muslim groups been receptive to your efforts?

The first person who responded to my letter was Mike Ghouse, the President of the World Muslim Congress. He worked so hard on this, helping to draft the letter to the King, emailing Muslim organizations, contacting friends of his and other faith organizations. Sheila Musaji, Editor of The American Muslim, was also among the first to sign. There are many Muslim organizations on the petition. We got great support from IranDokht, an online newsletter with more than 450,000 readers.

Mike is now drafting a letter to the King specifically from Muslim organizations, which can say things in a way that will be very meaningful and helpful for Fawza. And it will be very important in the press in Saudi Arabia and in the region, which could be hugely helpful.

What can American Pagans concerned about this case do aside from signing your petition, should we contact our elected officials? Send letters to the Saudi Arabian embassy?

I'm so glad you asked. First, please sign the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/AIDFAWZA/petition.html

And send the link to as many people and organizations as you can. This is so important because the more signatures we have, the more press coverage the story is like to get and the more pressure there is on the politicians and the King. Next, write to your Senators. A sample letter and links to the Senators is posted in the story on Fawza on the front page of WitchVox.

Send the letter to the Saudi Embassies in Washington and in New York.

Send the letter to Prince Sultan bin Salman bin Abdulaziz, secretary general of the Supreme Commission of Tourism of Saudi Arabia, who is very concerned about Saudi Arabia's image.

Send the letter to the State Department asking them to negotiate for Fawza's freedom.

Contact your local press, write a letter to the editor, ask the religion writer to do a story about the case, ask the radio and tv station to cover her story. Write Bill Maher and Steven Colbert and Keith Oberman and Nikolas Kristoff at the NYTimes and the various hosts on AirAmerica and ask them to cover the story.

If we do manage to help save Fawza Falih, what can we do to help ensure such a tragic turn of events doesn't happen again? It seems unlikely that major law reform will be coming to places like Saudi Arabia (or Iran) any time soon.

If we help to save Fawza, I hope people will see that when we stand up and fight for what's right, when we work together as a community, when we reach out to others to help us, when we're willing to sacrifice some time and energy to help someone, we can make a difference. No, we're not going to change the Saudi or the Iranian legal system. And we can't ensure that this never happens again. But if it happens again, we can do everything we can to help, perhaps we can change things one case at a time. That's everything.

And maybe, gradually, over time we'll educate people - that's one reason I do Interfaith work. By supporting those who are seeking to change things from within, the culture will also change. Change is a law of nature. And we can participate in a global effort to end the abuse and legal enslavement of women. It took years to change apartheid. But it WAS changed because people with vision worked for change. And a little magic won't hurt either. Just don't do it in a fundamentalist country.

Labels: Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali, interfaith, Islam, Phyllis Curott, Saudi Arabia, Witch Killings, Witchcraft

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Pagans on the Parliament Council

The oldest and largest interfaith organization in the world, The Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions, has elected two leaders from the Pagan community to serve on its executive council. The Rev. Angie Buchanan, director of Gaia's Womb, and Rev. Andras Corban-Arthen, a director of the EarthSpirit Community.

"Two well-known leaders of the Pagan community were elected to executive positions by the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions (CPWR), in Chicago, Illinois this past weekend ... Since its founding, CPWR has sponsored major international interfaith conferences in the USA, Africa, and Europe, and is preparing for the next conference to be held in Melbourne, Australia in 2009. On October 22, 2007, Rev. Angie Buchanan was elected for a three-year term to the Office of Secretary for the Board of Directors of the Parliament and will also serve on the Executive Committee ... In addition, Rev. Andras Corban-Arthen, serving as a member of the Parliament's Board of Trustees since 2006, was also elected to serve on the Executive Committee as a "Member at Large" at the same meeting this past weekend."

It was at the 1993 Parliament in Chicago (the first in 100 years) that the growing Pagan community "came out" to the larger religious world for the first time*.

"The Pagan presence at the Parliament was historic. The fact that this Parliament included Pagan group sponsors, speakers, and delegates in the first place was noteworthy, since Nature religions were excluded from the first Parliament. At this Parliament, however, there was inclusion, respect, and support. In addition to Wiccans and other Pagans, there were those from a variety of traditional Nature wisdom paths, including Winnebago, Navajo, Hopi, Yoruba, Maya, Santeria, Lakota, Cheyenne, and others. Pagan and Native American participation received widespread positive media attention. Some reporters commented that just as the first Parliament served to introduce Hinduism, Buddhism, and other Eastern religions to the realm of religions in the West, this Parliament served to bring Pagan and Native American spiritualities more fully into the community of the world's religions."

Since then modern Pagans have been an active part of Parliament-related interfaith forums and activities. Becoming a valued and respected part of its organizing council. Pagan participants are expected to be a valuable voice in the 2009 Parliament of the World's Religions, where issues of aboriginal reconciliation, sustainability, and global climate change, will be explored through the lens of indigenous spiritualities.

The fact that modern Pagans have risen to places of leadership in the global interfaith movement in less than fifteen years is extraordinary, and is a credit to our collective movement. One can only hope that this is a positive sign for the future, and that modern Pagan and Heathen organizations from across the world will step up to make their own voices heard in our global community in the coming years.

* The sponsoring Pagan organizations at the 1993 Parliament were Circle Sanctuary (Circle), Covenant of the Goddess (COG), EarthSpirit Community, Fellowship of Isis, and Lyceum of Venus of Healing.

Labels: Andras Corban-Arthen, Angie Buchanan, Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions, EarthSpirit, Gaia's Womb, interfaith, Paganism, Religion

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